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today's guest is jord hameroff who along

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with roger penrose has a theory of

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consciousness

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what's particularly interesting is that

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roger penrose is a rigorous physicist

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bordering on mathematician which means

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even more rigor

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and generally speaking those people tend

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to stay away from theories of

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consciousness

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that aren't simply emergent from

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material complexity

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however hammeroff and penrose have a

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theory that combines

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general relativity with quantum theory

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and it's in fact

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in this unification that produces

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consciousness within what are called

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microtubules though it doesn't

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necessarily need to be within there

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this is a technical talk and we didn't

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even get to half the questions

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there's quite a bit of jargon and that's

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because i believe that one needs to

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speak with a certain level of

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domain-specific language if one is going

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to make progress

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otherwise we stay at the jejune level if

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you're merely listening to this rather

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than watching such as on spotify or

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itunes or you're away from the monitor

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there are concomitant visuals in the

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youtube video

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for those unacquainted the point of this

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channel is to interview those who have

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contributions to a theory of everything

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and then for you and us to collectively

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via discord

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via the subreddit come to a greater

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understanding of the laws that govern us

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and god and free will and so on

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there is a clips channel called toe

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clippings with shorter

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shareable segments from these larger

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interviews i welcome people to submit

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theories to me

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and to each other but it's quickly

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becoming overwhelming

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so at some point i will host informal

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chats with audience members on their

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theories of everything

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on the toe clippings channel since this

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main channel

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is heavily dense with information and

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plenty of preparation plus editing

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it would be great to keep it that way if

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you'd like to see more conversations

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such as this then please consider

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donating at patreon.com or if you're

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simply interested in the general mission

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once 50 patrons is reached we'll host a

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friendly constructive conversation

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rather than a critical one with bernardo

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castro

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donald hoffman and jonathan verveicky

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enjoy so stewart how was your day ah

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hi kurt it's great uh i'm in california

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with my wife

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and uh we're kind of taking it easy

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today so i'm happy to talk with you and

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catch up did you perform any daily

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ritual

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any meditation any special diet today no

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usual well something i noticed about you

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was you're extremely quick-minded astute

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and and lucid and then i looked up your

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age

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and you're past 70. i hope i'm not

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spoiling anything

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but i'm curious how is it that you're

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able to stay so quick-witted

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and articulate well i'm still working as

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an anesthesiologist i'm on vacation at

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the moment but

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uh um i stay active i have

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keen intellectual interests as you know

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and love life and savor every moment and

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uh

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just keep going were you always like

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that

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probably yeah do you pray do you believe

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in god uh

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i do i in my own way i uh

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my beliefs are kind of personal and in

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tune with my own personal beliefs but i

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was raised in a religious family and

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got uh you know got that from them

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and uh i'm very grateful my parents and

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my family for

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my upbringing including including my

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religious i kind of rebelled against

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organized religion but

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believe in uh and something uh

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that organizes the universe some kind of

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uh uh

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probably conscious function that

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organizes the universe

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i find that most people who study

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consciousness have a dislike for

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institutionalized religion

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yeah but they like spirituality in some

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way shape or form

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yes right so why don't you give the

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audience a cliff notes

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version of your theory okay um

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well i got interested in the problem of

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consciousness when i was in

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uh undergrad uh and i took a philosophy

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of mine class i was a chemistry physics

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math major pre-med uh it was also the

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late 60s and we did things then that

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people did then

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and uh there was a lot of political

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turmoil social unrest as you might

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imagine

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and uh i got really interested in this

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velocity mind class

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but went to medical school and in

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medical school none of the particular

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specialties i like the brain mind

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problem but neurology psychiatry

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neurosurgery

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didn't appeal to me in terms of

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lifestyle and stuff to do

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i stumbled into anesthesiology but while

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i was still in medical school i did a

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research elective thinking i might like

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academics

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and i was in a cancer lab studying cell

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division how cells divide mitosis

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and you know the chromosomes the genes

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are genes are pulled apart by these

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structures called mitotic spindles made

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of microtubules

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and that perfectly separates the

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chromosomes the genetic material

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and everybody else in the lab i'm pretty

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sure got into the genes and went on into

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genetic

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engineering and all that but for some

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reason i got

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fixated on these structures that pulled

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apart the chromosomes

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and if they didn't do this delicate

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dance perfectly

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the genetic material would not be

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perfectly divided and you'd get

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abnormal mitosis you get mal development

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you get

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cancer and so forth so i got interested

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in the structures that did the

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mechanical movement

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and at that time in the early 70s it was

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appreciated that they are also

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in neurons the neurons were full of them

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and their structure was revealed and

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they had a lattice structure

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and that looked to me something like a

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computer matrix because i was

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trying to figure out how computers work

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computers were new to me anyway back

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then

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in the early 70s so we had the so i was

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interested in consciousness

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i looked inside neurons and there was

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all these structures that looked like

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little computers so i got the idea that

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these microtubules as they were called

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might be processing information

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and uh subservient uh consciousness at a

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level

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below neurons because as you know almost

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everybody else thinks that the brain is

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a bunch of

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is a computer of neurons each neuron

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acting as a simple

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on off switch yes or no a bit of one or

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a zero and if you get enough complex

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computation

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among neurons you get consciousness

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emerging in some way

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but yet there were single cell organisms

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that do very clever things they can swim

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around find food find a mate have sex

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learn and so forth and they were a

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single cell so if a single cell

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paramecium can do that for example i

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thought it's kind of

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an insult to a neuron to say it's just a

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one or a zero depending on whether it

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fires or not

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and so i i started i got interested in

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these microtubules

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inside neurons so uh a year is

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a year later a couple years later when i

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was looking for a specialty to do in

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medicine

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i thought about doing pure research and

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decided against it

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um but i stumbled into anesthesiology

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because the

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the guy who would become my my future

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chairman a guy named bernell brown a

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really

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brilliant and charismatic character

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became a good friend of mine and my

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mentor

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said if you want to figure out

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consciousness figure out how anesthesia

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works

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and two here's a paper on showing that

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anesthesia acts by depolymerizing

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microtubules that you're so fond of

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what does depolymerizing mean it means

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they fall apart

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they disassemble so there are lattice

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microtubules are lattice polymers of

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individual proteins called tubulin

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each tubulin is just one protein like a

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peanut

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shaped protein but by entropy they they

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this is really weird how entropy drives

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something

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so uh elaborately self-organized they

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they self-assemble into these hollow

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tubes

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and grow like like girders or

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scaffolding right i was watching this

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talk by

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anarban i believe yes right right right

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and they self-assemble and they grow

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they grow cells and they make

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neuronal connections and they do

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everything uh in terms of cell movement

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cell organization

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so uh it so if you give enough

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anesthesia and it turns out it takes

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about five times as much anesthesia

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to cause them to disassemble to to

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depolymerize into their

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to go from these elaborate uh polymers

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structures into the individual

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individual proteins

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uh enough anesthesia will do that well

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that's about five times the anesthesia

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you need to cause them

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to cause unconsciousness so fortunately

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we don't uh

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cause our microtubules to fall apart we

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just affect them in some

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more subtle way fortunately although too

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so anyway uh brunel uh my future

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you can figure out consciousness it has

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something to do with microtubules

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it's a lot of fun and it's pretty good

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money so that was

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a long time ago and i went in anesthesia

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and here i am 46 years later still doing

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it clinically

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and still enjoying it and the research

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has you know given me an opportunity to

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kind of go where i want to go then you

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started collaborating with penrose and

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i'm curious about the practical aspects

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of that we can talk about it later

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but i'm super curious to know what is it

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like to collaborate with penrose how do

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you do it do you use a whiteboard

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what's an example of a problem that

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you've tackled together recently but

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we'll talk about so you

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encountered penrose i should say before

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i get to roger i should say that i spent

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about

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20 years working on microtubules as

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classical information processing devices

287
00:09:24,150 --> 00:09:22,080
going around to

288
00:09:25,910 --> 00:09:24,160
artificial intelligence meetings neural

289
00:09:26,550 --> 00:09:25,920
net meetings neuroscience meetings

290
00:09:27,910 --> 00:09:26,560
saying

291
00:09:29,750 --> 00:09:27,920
hey to understand the brain you can't

292
00:09:30,630 --> 00:09:29,760
just think of the neuron as a one one or

293
00:09:32,550 --> 00:09:30,640
a zero

294
00:09:34,949 --> 00:09:32,560
you got to go into the deeper level and

295
00:09:37,190 --> 00:09:34,959
again all this additional information

296
00:09:38,790 --> 00:09:37,200
so for example that you know ai

297
00:09:39,509 --> 00:09:38,800
singularity people were saying well you

298
00:09:41,509 --> 00:09:39,519
have

299
00:09:42,550 --> 00:09:41,519
10 to the 11th neurons are switching at

300
00:09:44,949 --> 00:09:42,560
about a thousand

301
00:09:47,030 --> 00:09:44,959
per hertz see about 100 or a thousand

302
00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:47,040
synapses 100 hertz gives you about

303
00:09:51,269 --> 00:09:49,680
10 to the 16th operations per second and

304
00:09:52,870 --> 00:09:51,279
kurtzweil and singularity were saying

305
00:09:53,430 --> 00:09:52,880
well when we get to 10 to the 16th we'll

306
00:09:55,590 --> 00:09:53,440
have

307
00:09:56,470 --> 00:09:55,600
brain equivalence and consciousness but

308
00:09:58,949 --> 00:09:56,480
i said well no

309
00:09:59,509 --> 00:09:58,959
if you have the microtubule subunits

310
00:10:02,550 --> 00:09:59,519
about a

311
00:10:06,389 --> 00:10:02,560
billion of them or uh per neuron

312
00:10:07,509 --> 00:10:06,399
switching at uh 10 megahertz you get 10

313
00:10:10,230 --> 00:10:07,519
to the 16th

314
00:10:10,550 --> 00:10:10,240
operations per second for every neuron

315
00:10:13,110 --> 00:10:10,560
so

316
00:10:14,470 --> 00:10:13,120
uh the goal post for ai was i was

317
00:10:17,110 --> 00:10:14,480
pushing it way down

318
00:10:17,990 --> 00:10:17,120
down the field and uh they didn't like

319
00:10:19,990 --> 00:10:18,000
that you know they

320
00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:20,000
said go away you bother us you know what

321
00:10:22,870 --> 00:10:21,120
are you doing because they wanted the

322
00:10:25,190 --> 00:10:22,880
singularity to happen in their lifetime

323
00:10:26,630 --> 00:10:25,200
exactly you know give them another you

324
00:10:27,829 --> 00:10:26,640
know a couple billion and they'll have a

325
00:10:30,150 --> 00:10:27,839
brain equivalence

326
00:10:31,430 --> 00:10:30,160
you know in in another few years so i

327
00:10:34,470 --> 00:10:31,440
thought that was bs

328
00:10:35,910 --> 00:10:34,480
um and i thought their their approach to

329
00:10:38,550 --> 00:10:35,920
the brain was an insult

330
00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:38,560
to the brain an insult to neurons and i

331
00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:39,680
was going around uh

332
00:10:44,470 --> 00:10:42,880
doing my thing being pest um

333
00:10:46,230 --> 00:10:44,480
and then one day somebody said ask me a

334
00:10:49,190 --> 00:10:46,240
very good question he said

335
00:10:49,750 --> 00:10:49,200
um let's say you're right wise guy wise

336
00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:49,760
ass

337
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:51,920
and all this is going on how does that

338
00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:53,200
explain consciousness

339
00:10:57,269 --> 00:10:55,760
how does that explain you know love joy

340
00:11:00,790 --> 00:10:57,279
feelings pinkness

341
00:11:02,470 --> 00:11:00,800
envy taste you know uh what later became

342
00:11:05,590 --> 00:11:02,480
known as the hard problem by

343
00:11:07,110 --> 00:11:05,600
according to david chalmers and i was i

344
00:11:08,550 --> 00:11:07,120
was a bit stunned i had to admit they

345
00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:08,560
were right i really didn't know

346
00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:11,040
and uh i had enjoyed being a pest but i

347
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:12,880
didn't really have a solution other than

348
00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:14,800
we had to look deeper and the same

349
00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:16,720
person suggested i read this book by

350
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:18,560
roger penrose called the emperor's new

351
00:11:20,949 --> 00:11:19,360
mind

352
00:11:22,389 --> 00:11:20,959
and i had vaguely heard of penrose but i

353
00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:22,399
didn't really know his work this was

354
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:24,800
well he wrote the book in 89 and i think

355
00:11:29,910 --> 00:11:26,480
i read it in 91

356
00:11:32,710 --> 00:11:29,920
um or so and uh it was

357
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:32,720
uh quite a tour de force as you may know

358
00:11:36,310 --> 00:11:34,160
it it covered

359
00:11:38,069 --> 00:11:36,320
the main the main point was it started

360
00:11:41,190 --> 00:11:38,079
off with through girdle's theorem

361
00:11:43,430 --> 00:11:41,200
arguing that um consciousness requires

362
00:11:45,269 --> 00:11:43,440
something other than computation

363
00:11:46,949 --> 00:11:45,279
other than what we think of as classical

364
00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:46,959
computation

365
00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:51,519
something else

366
00:11:59,350 --> 00:11:56,000
because uh girdle's theorem uh

367
00:12:01,190 --> 00:11:59,360
to prove a theorem in mathematics uh you

368
00:12:01,990 --> 00:12:01,200
have to be outside the computational

369
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:02,000
system

370
00:12:05,670 --> 00:12:04,720
so we extrapolate extrapolated that to

371
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:05,680
say that

372
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:08,480
uh to uh for understanding for us to

373
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:09,120
know any

374
00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:12,079
need something outside of the

375
00:12:15,990 --> 00:12:13,519
computational system

376
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:16,000
of the brain basically the neurons

377
00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:17,440
firing out fire

378
00:12:21,509 --> 00:12:20,240
and uh i didn't i didn't follow all it

379
00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:21,519
got into the weeds in terms of

380
00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:23,120
philosophy and mathematics

381
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:25,920
that kind of lost me but intuitively uh

382
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:26,560
it was

383
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:28,079
i felt he was onto something and he was

384
00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:30,160
at least questioning and had the same

385
00:12:34,310 --> 00:12:32,000
gut feelings that i did that there was

386
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:34,320
something more to it than that

387
00:12:37,990 --> 00:12:37,600
and uh but his answer you know what that

388
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:38,000
something

389
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:41,120
was what the missing ingredient was

390
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:42,720
got into quantum physics and a

391
00:12:45,829 --> 00:12:44,399
self-collapse of the wave function and

392
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:45,839
his own theory

393
00:12:49,110 --> 00:12:48,160
of the measurement problem and in

394
00:12:50,870 --> 00:12:49,120
quantum mechanics

395
00:12:52,949 --> 00:12:50,880
as you as you may know you can have

396
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:52,959
superpositions of multiple coexisting

397
00:12:56,069 --> 00:12:54,320
possibilities

398
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,079
things can be in two states or places at

399
00:12:59,990 --> 00:12:58,320
the same time and yet when you measure

400
00:13:02,470 --> 00:13:00,000
or observe them

401
00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:02,480
they become one or the other so the very

402
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:03,839
active measurement

403
00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:05,600
or some people thought the very act of

404
00:13:08,629 --> 00:13:07,200
conscious observation

405
00:13:11,269 --> 00:13:08,639
seemed to cause collapse of the wave

406
00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:11,279
function and the other idea is that

407
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:13,360
each possibility coexists and continues

408
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:15,519
and forms its own universe

409
00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:17,440
or that the coherence does it or the

410
00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:20,480
bone theory or this or that uh

411
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:22,160
and uh they all have their flaws and

412
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:23,519
they all have their appeals

413
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:26,320
uh but rogers was that well the first

414
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:27,279
thing he did that

415
00:13:31,509 --> 00:13:29,760
was really kind of mind-blowing and

416
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:31,519
still is after all these years is that

417
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:33,920
he explained superposition

418
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:35,760
which nobody else has even attempted to

419
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:37,440
do as far as i can tell

420
00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:38,959
so the question is how can something be

421
00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:40,560
in two places at the same time how can

422
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:41,839
it be here

423
00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:43,519
and here the same thing in two different

424
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:45,360
places and

425
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:48,320
he he he saw that by by resorting to

426
00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:49,920
general relativity

427
00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:52,959
by saying that uh as as you know for

428
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:55,040
very large objects like the sun

429
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:57,199
there's curvature of space time this

430
00:14:01,750 --> 00:13:58,079
goes back to

431
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:01,760
einstein's general relativity and so

432
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:03,760
einstein had predicted that a star

433
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:05,279
behind the sun

434
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:08,399
could be visible in an eclipse because

435
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:09,839
the space time curvature

436
00:14:13,350 --> 00:14:11,360
would bend the bend the light around the

437
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:13,360
space-time curvature and we would see it

438
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:14,560
even though we knew it was behind the

439
00:14:18,150 --> 00:14:16,399
star and in 1919

440
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:18,160
eddington uh went to the top of the

441
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:19,680
mountain during the eclipse

442
00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:21,360
and proved einstein right that there was

443
00:14:24,790 --> 00:14:23,360
these these big curvature in space-time

444
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:24,800
and we could see these stars behind the

445
00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:25,519
sun

446
00:14:30,629 --> 00:14:29,120
in an eclipse so um basically einstein

447
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:30,639
equated uh

448
00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:32,320
mass with curvature and space-time

449
00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:34,480
geometry for large things

450
00:14:38,069 --> 00:14:36,240
roger applied that to small things and

451
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:38,079
said a small thing like a quantum

452
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:38,880
particle

453
00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:40,800
approach on an electron or something at

454
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:42,240
the quantum level

455
00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:45,120
uh has a has a very tiny curvature and

456
00:14:47,189 --> 00:14:45,440
so

457
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:47,199
if it's over here there's a curvature

458
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:48,800
going this way if it's over here there's

459
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:50,320
a curvature going this way

460
00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:52,240
so it being in two places at once was

461
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:54,000
actually two separate curvatures

462
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:56,560
a separation and space time so the

463
00:15:00,310 --> 00:14:58,480
fundamental level of the universe

464
00:15:02,230 --> 00:15:00,320
that he called space-time geometry and

465
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:02,240
which he cleverly portrayed as these

466
00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:03,920
two-dimensional sheets

467
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:06,800
could separate and uh you could imagine

468
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:08,560
that if they continue to separate each

469
00:15:11,509 --> 00:15:09,920
would have its own universe and you'd

470
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:11,519
have multiple worlds

471
00:15:15,590 --> 00:15:13,040
but he said these separations were

472
00:15:17,829 --> 00:15:15,600
unstable and after time t

473
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:17,839
would would self-collapse to one or the

474
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:18,959
other

475
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:21,680
and and t was was inversely related to

476
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:22,560
the amount of

477
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:25,040
separation so a very large separation

478
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:26,000
would self-collapse

479
00:15:30,629 --> 00:15:27,680
quickly and a small one would take a

480
00:15:32,389 --> 00:15:30,639
long time and and here was the kicker

481
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:32,399
and when that collapse occurred to one

482
00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:34,320
of the other there was

483
00:15:39,030 --> 00:15:36,720
a moment of consciousness that was

484
00:15:40,069 --> 00:15:39,040
created or occurred or emitted depending

485
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:40,079
on how you want to describe

486
00:15:45,189 --> 00:15:42,880
it so this was the opposite of the idea

487
00:15:46,710 --> 00:15:45,199
that consciousness caused collapse

488
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:46,720
in roger's view collapse occurred

489
00:15:51,269 --> 00:15:48,800
spontaneously due to this

490
00:15:53,269 --> 00:15:51,279
property of of the universe and created

491
00:15:56,069 --> 00:15:53,279
consciousness cause consciousness

492
00:15:58,150 --> 00:15:56,079
almost like a quantum of consciousness a

493
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:58,160
quantum man

494
00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:00,959
and uh and so he he turned the the

495
00:16:04,230 --> 00:16:02,639
so-called copenhagen interpretation and

496
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,240
consciousness causes collapse

497
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:06,079
around and said collapse occurs

498
00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:08,240
spontaneously and causes consciousness

499
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:10,000
and he did it with these clever drawings

500
00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:11,360
and not a whole lot you know

501
00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:12,800
there's plenty of math and equations

502
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:14,399
that i didn't follow

503
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:16,320
but i got i got to just because he's

504
00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:17,600
more uh creative and

505
00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:20,000
well he's more expressive in terms of uh

506
00:16:25,189 --> 00:16:21,120
illustrations and

507
00:16:28,949 --> 00:16:25,199
his clever cartoon he's extremely visual

508
00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:28,959
yes yes and artistic and uh you know he

509
00:16:33,350 --> 00:16:31,360
he's also involved with m.c escher and

510
00:16:35,269 --> 00:16:33,360
and that's kind of a whole sideline but

511
00:16:37,749 --> 00:16:35,279
but um you know i was able to grow grop

512
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,759
what he was saying intuitively

513
00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:39,920
and uh so he was saying at the end that

514
00:16:43,829 --> 00:16:41,600
well you there needed to be some kind of

515
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:43,839
quantum computer in the brain that would

516
00:16:49,509 --> 00:16:47,360
self-collapse by the by this threshold

517
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:49,519
but that neurons firing or firing were

518
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:50,720
were too big

519
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:52,320
so he already knew that neurons were too

520
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:54,240
big but he didn't have a candidate

521
00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:56,880
for a quantum computer and uh so we're

522
00:17:01,430 --> 00:16:59,279
reading this after spending 20 years

523
00:17:03,269 --> 00:17:01,440
uh working on microtubules at a smaller

524
00:17:04,150 --> 00:17:03,279
level and i knew a little bit about

525
00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:04,160
quantum because

526
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:05,679
there had been a guy named frolic

527
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:08,480
herbert frolic in the 60s and 70s

528
00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:09,679
who claimed that there was quantum

529
00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:12,640
coherence in in geometric

530
00:17:16,829 --> 00:17:16,160
biological lattices uh that were in a in

531
00:17:43,909 --> 00:17:16,839
a

532
00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:43,919
being these frolic uh

533
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:46,000
oscillators coherent devices is he still

534
00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:47,039
alive

535
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:49,600
no he died in 1991 he got a long time

536
00:17:52,789 --> 00:17:51,039
ago actually i see i see

537
00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:52,799
we were going to have a conference for

538
00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:54,960
him uh we had arranged a nato advanced

539
00:17:57,750 --> 00:17:56,480
workshop to bring in a lot of people

540
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:57,760
talking about his

541
00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:00,000
his theory but unfortunately he died uh

542
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:02,240
a couple months before the conference

543
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:03,760
we had which we had anyway it was a

544
00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:06,160
great conference but um

545
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:08,320
now uh but he died in uh i think it was

546
00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:09,360
91.

547
00:18:13,909 --> 00:18:11,520
but i but i have something called frolic

548
00:18:14,789 --> 00:18:13,919
residences right which president follow

549
00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:14,799
coherence

550
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:16,960
they just came out actually in the

551
00:18:21,029 --> 00:18:18,240
fizzrev a

552
00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:21,039
uh my wife just gave me the reference uh

553
00:18:25,110 --> 00:18:22,240
a new paper by

554
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:25,120
a guy uh aristid delgario at university

555
00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:26,240
of central florida

556
00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:28,480
about frola coherence and it's it's a

557
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:30,640
brand new treatment and it's very pro

558
00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:33,120
pro frolic and actually i know uh rsd

559
00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:34,320
actually we're working together on

560
00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:35,440
another project

561
00:18:40,150 --> 00:18:38,320
so yeah frolic coherence uh actually

562
00:18:40,470 --> 00:18:40,160
suffices for the kind of quantum state

563
00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:40,480
that

564
00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:43,679
right

565
00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:46,400
uh structure and i i thought it applied

566
00:18:51,430 --> 00:18:48,160
to microtubules so

567
00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:51,440
anyway i wrote to uh to roger and when

568
00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:54,799
after i read his book and and said that

569
00:18:59,029 --> 00:18:56,000
i really enjoyed it

570
00:19:00,710 --> 00:18:59,039
and uh thought that uh microtubules

571
00:19:03,029 --> 00:19:00,720
which i described in a letter

572
00:19:04,789 --> 00:19:03,039
might be the quantum computer inside the

573
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:04,799
brain that he needed

574
00:19:08,710 --> 00:19:07,360
and uh and that i by the way was going

575
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:08,720
to be in england for a meeting

576
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:12,080
a couple months hence and be happy to

577
00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:13,679
discuss it with them and i was uh

578
00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:14,240
thrilled

579
00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:17,200
and delighted to get a uh a letter the

580
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:19,520
old-fashioned kind in the mail

581
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:22,559
yes happy to meet you come meet me at

582
00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:23,600
the

583
00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:26,880
and such a day and time

584
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:30,160
and so i did and uh he actually uh

585
00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:31,600
i think he met me at the train station

586
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:33,360
we walked over and

587
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:36,240
uh sat in his office for several hours

588
00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:37,440
actually

589
00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:39,760
and uh i did almost all the talking he

590
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:41,120
just asked me a few questions about

591
00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:43,200
microtubules and i brought a book that i

592
00:19:47,270 --> 00:19:46,080
had uh written about microtubules and

593
00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:47,280
several articles

594
00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:48,880
and uh when we went through all the

595
00:19:52,150 --> 00:19:50,799
illustrations what sorts of questions

596
00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:52,160
did he ask you

597
00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:53,600
he said the first day first thing he

598
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:55,440
asked me was are these things real or

599
00:19:59,669 --> 00:19:56,320
biological

600
00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:59,679
or or matt or or computer simulations

601
00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:01,039
i said oh they're definitely real

602
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:02,799
they're all they're all living cells

603
00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:04,400
make up mitosis and i show them lots of

604
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:05,679
pictures

605
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:08,880
and uh and so he was particularly

606
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:09,840
interested in that

607
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:13,520
in the geometry of the a lattice

608
00:20:16,950 --> 00:20:15,200
now microtubules can form in two

609
00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:16,960
different types of lattices

610
00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:19,440
the a lattice or the b lattice and the a

611
00:20:23,270 --> 00:20:20,240
lattice

612
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:23,280
has a fibonacci geometry and roger is at

613
00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:24,640
heart

614
00:20:28,870 --> 00:20:27,280
geometrist your geometry and the

615
00:20:31,669 --> 00:20:28,880
fibonacci giant

616
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:31,679
you have these spiral helical windings

617
00:20:35,990 --> 00:20:33,200
of the tubulins

618
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:36,000
and if you go if you follow one pathway

619
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:37,760
they repeats every three every three

620
00:20:40,549 --> 00:20:38,640
tubulins

621
00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:40,559
another every five and another every

622
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:43,200
eight and then 13 and 21 the fibonacci

623
00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:44,000
series

624
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:45,840
so the in the a lattice the the

625
00:20:50,149 --> 00:20:47,360
fibonacci geometry was

626
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:50,159
was intrinsic to the lattice and he said

627
00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:50,720
if that's

628
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:53,280
if alas could be could be a quantum

629
00:20:55,350 --> 00:20:54,720
device just because of the young teller

630
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:55,360
effect

631
00:21:02,070 --> 00:20:59,360
and and so forth and uh

632
00:21:03,909 --> 00:21:02,080
i also was looking deeper inside each

633
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:03,919
tubulin to these

634
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:06,240
pi resonance aromatic amino acids

635
00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:07,760
because i knew that's where anesthetics

636
00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:08,240
act

637
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:11,840
and so forth so anyway he liked the idea

638
00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:16,080
and uh although um i didn't think at the

639
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:18,080
time going back to the meeting in oxford

640
00:21:21,190 --> 00:21:19,600
i didn't know if anything would come of

641
00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:21,200
it although he did mention

642
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:23,200
that he was going to a conference at

643
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:25,440
cambridge with dan dennett and pat

644
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:26,320
churchlin two

645
00:21:32,789 --> 00:21:30,080
philosophers of mine uh big names and uh

646
00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:32,799
that uh you know it was gonna be about

647
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:33,520
consciousness

648
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:35,840
and i thought gee i'd be really fun to

649
00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:37,039
go to but i was going to a different

650
00:21:41,430 --> 00:21:37,840
conference

651
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:41,440
he thanked me we said goodbye

652
00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:42,960
and i said well that was cool i got to

653
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:44,960
meet roger penrose and i didn't

654
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:47,679
think anything would come of it and uh

655
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:49,120
two weeks later i was back in london

656
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:50,400
heading back to the states

657
00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:51,760
and had dinner with a friend and he said

658
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:54,080
hey guess what my friend went to this

659
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:56,080
meeting in cambridge and roger penrose

660
00:21:59,350 --> 00:21:57,520
was talking about you and your damn

661
00:22:01,909 --> 00:21:59,360
microtubules oh great

662
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:01,919
and uh i was thrilled i was just tickled

663
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:03,280
to death so um

664
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:05,520
i said well that's even better and then

665
00:22:07,590 --> 00:22:07,039
a few months later i got invited to a

666
00:22:10,149 --> 00:22:07,600
meeting

667
00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:10,159
uh that roger had arranged to get me

668
00:22:14,549 --> 00:22:11,120
invited to

669
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:14,559
it was obvious in sweden

670
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:16,720
a very limited uh basically speakers

671
00:22:20,789 --> 00:22:17,919
only meeting

672
00:22:22,390 --> 00:22:20,799
north of the arctic circle and in in the

673
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:22,400
midnight sun which was

674
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:25,120
dan dana was there and uh petra story

675
00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:27,039
and a few other people

676
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:30,320
and um roger and his wife vanessa and uh

677
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:31,280
we were there for

678
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:34,080
about five days and uh you know the

679
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:35,360
meetings were doing today but

680
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:37,440
with no no darkness we just stayed up

681
00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:39,440
and talked and went skiing at night and

682
00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:40,480
walked and

683
00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:41,840
played ping pong and did all kinds of

684
00:22:45,909 --> 00:22:43,520
things like no darkness

685
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:45,919
pardon me you said with no darkness it

686
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:47,840
was above the polar circle in sweden

687
00:22:49,669 --> 00:22:49,200
during the midnight sun there it was

688
00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:49,679
like

689
00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:52,960
okay july or august uh way way north

690
00:22:58,630 --> 00:22:56,159
so uh mid no uh you know midnight sun

691
00:23:00,789 --> 00:22:58,640
and we actually went skiing at night uh

692
00:23:03,029 --> 00:23:00,799
on a place on the

693
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:03,039
i think it was the norwegian swedish

694
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:04,080
border

695
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:07,120
and uh it was a lot of fun and

696
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:09,520
got to know him a little bit and at that

697
00:23:11,669 --> 00:23:11,039
meeting i invited him to a conference

698
00:23:13,510 --> 00:23:11,679
that i was or

699
00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:13,520
i was organized the first tucson

700
00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:15,440
conference the science of consciousness

701
00:23:19,029 --> 00:23:17,520
in tucson and it was the first

702
00:23:21,669 --> 00:23:19,039
interdisciplinary conference

703
00:23:23,669 --> 00:23:21,679
and i invited him and bribed him with a

704
00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:23,679
trip to the grand canyon

705
00:23:27,029 --> 00:23:25,600
and uh not that i needed to bride him

706
00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:27,039
but he he was

707
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:29,039
happy to to go and so he was at the

708
00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:30,159
first conference

709
00:23:34,830 --> 00:23:32,720
which we held in 1994 the science of con

710
00:23:36,230 --> 00:23:34,840
or he's called then toward a science of

711
00:23:37,909 --> 00:23:36,240
consciousness

712
00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:37,919
and later we changed to the science of

713
00:23:39,909 --> 00:23:38,960
consciousness so we've been doing that

714
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:39,919
every year

715
00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:42,559
either in tucson or elsewhere since 94.

716
00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:44,480
so he's the first one he's been back to

717
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:46,640
probably five or six of them was it the

718
00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:48,400
first one that 28 year old david

719
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:49,360
chalmers was there

720
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:51,840
and you went on a hike yeah david

721
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:53,200
chalmers and his famous talk

722
00:23:57,350 --> 00:23:56,159
yes uh so let me tell you since you

723
00:23:58,149 --> 00:23:57,360
mentioned it i'll tell you the story

724
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:58,159
about that

725
00:24:01,830 --> 00:24:00,400
so i was i was the main organizer i got

726
00:24:03,909 --> 00:24:01,840
uh al cassini

727
00:24:05,269 --> 00:24:03,919
my friend for psychology and alex l

728
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:05,279
scott from mathematics

729
00:24:09,909 --> 00:24:08,320
to organize it and uh

730
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:09,919
the internet had just happened so we had

731
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:12,480
email but most of the correspondence was

732
00:24:18,310 --> 00:24:14,480
by fax and this and that

733
00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:18,320
and the idea at the time was to have the

734
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:20,080
first day on philosophy the second day

735
00:24:22,549 --> 00:24:21,440
on neuroscience the third day in

736
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:22,559
cognitive science

737
00:24:26,230 --> 00:24:24,480
the fourth day on math and physics and

738
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:26,240
biology and the fifth day on phenomenal

739
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:28,640
experience which in retrospect was a

740
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:29,840
huge mistake

741
00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:31,120
because what you really want to do is

742
00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:33,200
integrate you know different different

743
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:33,840
approaches

744
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:36,000
on a given topic i see it i think but

745
00:24:39,990 --> 00:24:37,440
that's so that's the way uh

746
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:40,000
you know out of naivete we set it up so

747
00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:41,760
the first morning was philosophy and the

748
00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:43,200
first two speakers were well-known

749
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:44,640
philosophers

750
00:24:49,029 --> 00:24:47,520
who got up and and uh literally read

751
00:24:51,590 --> 00:24:49,039
their talks

752
00:24:53,590 --> 00:24:51,600
their papers with no slides and that's

753
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:53,600
that's what philosophers did back then

754
00:24:57,190 --> 00:24:55,039
some of them still do but they've come a

755
00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:57,200
long way and uh

756
00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:00,000
and and after the first two talks

757
00:25:03,909 --> 00:25:02,400
everybody in the audience is

758
00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:03,919
they're going to sleep they're like

759
00:25:06,549 --> 00:25:05,200
totally you know the energy the

760
00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:06,559
philosophers dug it but everybody else

761
00:25:10,789 --> 00:25:08,240
was like what the hell

762
00:25:11,669 --> 00:25:10,799
but then the third talk was was chalmers

763
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:11,679
and he was

764
00:25:15,669 --> 00:25:14,559
an unknown postdoc who had kind of

765
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:15,679
lobbied me by

766
00:25:20,230 --> 00:25:18,720
email to give a plenary talk every it

767
00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:20,240
was either plenty of your posters and he

768
00:25:24,149 --> 00:25:21,919
said i don't give a poster

769
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:24,159
and his his abstract was about the hard

770
00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:26,000
problem versus the easy problems

771
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:28,400
and problems i said okay what the heck

772
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:29,520
so he

773
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:32,640
he was the unknown third speaker and so

774
00:25:35,909 --> 00:25:33,440
he got up

775
00:25:36,630 --> 00:25:35,919
and uh woke everybody up out of their

776
00:25:38,789 --> 00:25:36,640
stupor

777
00:25:39,909 --> 00:25:38,799
uh because he gave a great talk exciting

778
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:39,919
talk

779
00:25:44,630 --> 00:25:41,679
he you know was hit he had hair down at

780
00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:44,640
his waist and strutted back and forth

781
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:46,960
with an australian accent you know kind

782
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:48,559
of looking like mick jagger

783
00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:50,880
prancing back and forth saying yeah

784
00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:52,159
memory attention

785
00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:53,840
all this they're difficult but they're

786
00:25:55,990 --> 00:25:55,600
relatively easy compared to why we have

787
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:56,000
conscious

788
00:26:00,310 --> 00:25:58,320
experience well we have qualia so he

789
00:26:01,510 --> 00:26:00,320
just went off on the hard problem

790
00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:01,520
and was that the first time he

791
00:26:06,630 --> 00:26:03,360
introduced it publicly

792
00:26:08,710 --> 00:26:06,640
yes yes and uh

793
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:08,720
so after after his talk was the coffee

794
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:10,000
break and i went around like

795
00:26:13,350 --> 00:26:11,520
a playwright on broadway you know

796
00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:13,360
listening in and people go oh the hard

797
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:14,720
problem the hard problem that's why

798
00:26:17,669 --> 00:26:15,440
we're here

799
00:26:19,350 --> 00:26:17,679
and he really galvanized the movement so

800
00:26:21,110 --> 00:26:19,360
from that point on i think there was a

801
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:21,120
a kind of a unified field of

802
00:26:24,789 --> 00:26:22,799
consciousness studies

803
00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:24,799
uh from that that talk on and we became

804
00:26:29,669 --> 00:26:26,159
good friends afterwards and he

805
00:26:31,110 --> 00:26:29,679
uh dave uh tagged along to the grand

806
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:31,120
canyon with roger and a bunch of other

807
00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:31,760
people

808
00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:34,000
and um you know we've been friends ever

809
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:34,880
since

810
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:36,320
how has your theory of consciousness

811
00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:38,880
been modified by penrose

812
00:26:42,390 --> 00:26:40,880
well my theory was just a more com

813
00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:42,400
computational

814
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:44,400
some would say ad nauseam you know more

815
00:26:49,830 --> 00:26:46,960
more complication at a deeper level

816
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,840
so it was hierarchical and it was at a

817
00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:51,600
molecular level but it didn't it didn't

818
00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:52,000
utilize

819
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:53,600
the quantum i knew about frolic but i

820
00:26:57,110 --> 00:26:55,360
didn't really and i said yeah and that

821
00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:57,120
gives you unified coherence which

822
00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:58,640
consciousness had

823
00:27:01,669 --> 00:27:00,720
but uh it wasn't quantified in any way

824
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:01,679
so roger

825
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:06,720
uh uh you know when we uh when we met

826
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:08,400
and said you know we can kind of put

827
00:27:13,830 --> 00:27:10,240
this together in a theory

828
00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:13,840
and he said yeah well uh so he handed me

829
00:27:18,549 --> 00:27:16,720
uh in a quick actually a couple couple

830
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:18,559
weeks afterwards or maybe a month later

831
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:20,159
we met up again in denmark

832
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:22,000
a long story but i had a couple weeks

833
00:27:25,669 --> 00:27:24,240
off and i took my son and we we hung out

834
00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:25,679
in denmark where i had done my

835
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:28,000
my sabbatical where roger and vanessa

836
00:27:31,510 --> 00:27:29,840
also hung out because

837
00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:31,520
strange story their dentist was there

838
00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:32,960
from years ago they used to go there and

839
00:27:37,029 --> 00:27:34,960
see their dentist and hang out in

840
00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:37,039
in denmark and uh there was a conference

841
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,480
and i got roger invited the conference

842
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:40,240
so we stayed at a house together on lake

843
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:41,039
lumbee

844
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:43,760
and uh and began to develop a theory and

845
00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:45,520
he would give me kind of an assignment

846
00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:48,080
and uh you know i felt like a student

847
00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:49,760
which i was really in terms of physics

848
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:51,520
and math and i'd you know

849
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:54,240
stay up late and do this algebra

850
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:55,840
basically and come back with an answer

851
00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:57,360
he's okay so now we have to do this and

852
00:27:59,510 --> 00:27:57,760
that

853
00:28:01,269 --> 00:27:59,520
what was an example of one of those

854
00:28:04,389 --> 00:28:01,279
exercises was it related to t

855
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:04,399
equals h bar over e and calculating yeah

856
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:05,360
it was almost all

857
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:09,440
related to to that so roger had given me

858
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:12,720
that equation going back to the to when

859
00:28:16,310 --> 00:28:14,720
he was in tucson for the uh the

860
00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:16,320
conference i said well how do we

861
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:17,279
quantify that

862
00:28:21,029 --> 00:28:19,279
and he said well we have to we have to

863
00:28:24,310 --> 00:28:21,039
put the uh

864
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:24,320
we have to put microtubules into this

865
00:28:28,870 --> 00:28:25,440
equation

866
00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:28,880
uh t equals uh h bar over e sub g

867
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:31,919
and uh i said okay well how do we do

868
00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:32,240
that

869
00:28:36,789 --> 00:28:35,440
collapse would occur

870
00:28:38,230 --> 00:28:36,799
and i thought that we would have to

871
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:38,240
relate that some way to something in the

872
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:40,640
brain like 40 hertz oscillations

873
00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:42,399
back then gamma synchrony 40 hertz

874
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:44,240
oscillations was the big thing

875
00:28:48,389 --> 00:28:47,120
so uh when you had coherent 40 hertz geg

876
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:48,399
you had consciousness that's

877
00:28:52,149 --> 00:28:50,480
that's and regarding these oscillations

878
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:52,159
is it just that the neurons are firing

879
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:53,520
at the same time

880
00:28:57,669 --> 00:28:56,159
40 000 times a second no this is 40

881
00:28:59,430 --> 00:28:57,679
hertz just 40 times a second

882
00:29:00,870 --> 00:28:59,440
but it's not firing it's not firing

883
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:00,880
actually that's that's one of the uh

884
00:29:05,909 --> 00:29:02,880
that's one of the problems people

885
00:29:06,549 --> 00:29:05,919
uh say that but neurons you take one

886
00:29:08,950 --> 00:29:06,559
neuron

887
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:08,960
it's integrate and fire it's the basic

888
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:10,480
hodgkin huxley neuron

889
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:12,080
so you have the dendrites and soma that

890
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:15,039
receive inputs from the synapses

891
00:29:21,430 --> 00:29:18,080
and and the story goes that

892
00:29:23,269 --> 00:29:21,440
strictly by membrane potentials uh these

893
00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:23,279
thresholds are integrated these

894
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:25,520
potentials are integrated to a threshold

895
00:29:28,549 --> 00:29:27,120
at what was called the axon hillock

896
00:29:30,470 --> 00:29:28,559
where the axon begins or now it's called

897
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:30,480
the axon initiation segment

898
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:32,480
and if if the threshold is met there'll

899
00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:33,679
be a firing

900
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:36,720
and the axon would depolarize and

901
00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:38,480
you get the signal down to the next

902
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:40,559
synapse whatever that may be

903
00:29:44,549 --> 00:29:42,720
and uh because it was an all or none if

904
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:44,559
it fired it fired

905
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:47,200
that was considered the the the binary

906
00:29:50,470 --> 00:29:47,760
the bit

907
00:29:51,029 --> 00:29:50,480
the fundamental unit of firing but

908
00:29:53,269 --> 00:29:51,039
actually

909
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:53,279
eeg comes mostly from local field

910
00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:54,960
potentials which come from the dendrites

911
00:29:57,190 --> 00:29:55,760
in the soma

912
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:57,200
from the integration phase from the

913
00:30:01,110 --> 00:29:59,760
integrate and fire in the hodgkin huxley

914
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:01,120
not not the firing

915
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:03,279
but it's more convenient for ai and for

916
00:30:07,750 --> 00:30:05,200
neuroscientists to consider

917
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:07,760
bits to consider firings to be the bits

918
00:30:13,029 --> 00:30:09,840
it fits better with the computer uh

919
00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:13,039
analogy and uh and so people say that

920
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:15,600
in fact christophe koch and crick and

921
00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:16,080
coke

922
00:30:20,549 --> 00:30:17,760
francis crick and christoph koch back

923
00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:20,559
then in in 90 actually came out the idea

924
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:22,320
that 40 hertz was the

925
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:23,600
was the neural correlate of

926
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:25,360
consciousness but

927
00:30:29,430 --> 00:30:28,080
they were they were also uh committed to

928
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:29,440
the idea that spikes

929
00:30:32,470 --> 00:30:31,360
firings were they were the currency of

930
00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:32,480
consciousness

931
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:34,799
so when it was realized that uh that it

932
00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:35,679
was um

933
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:38,640
that that firings that eeg came from the

934
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:40,320
local field potentials on the dendritic

935
00:30:43,669 --> 00:30:41,039
side

936
00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:43,679
uh from integration not the firings they

937
00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:45,200
dropped 40 hertz they said well it can't

938
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:46,480
be in other words they had to choose

939
00:30:49,990 --> 00:30:48,240
between firings

940
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:50,000
and 40 hertz as the neural coral of

941
00:30:54,149 --> 00:30:52,480
consciousness and they went with firings

942
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:54,159
and spikes and dropped the 40 hertz i

943
00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:54,960
think that was

944
00:30:58,870 --> 00:30:57,600
a big mistake but in any case it was it

945
00:31:00,310 --> 00:30:58,880
was 40 yards but

946
00:31:02,070 --> 00:31:00,320
so we were we were thinking well we had

947
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:02,080
to maintain the quantum coherence state

948
00:31:05,509 --> 00:31:04,320
for 25 milliseconds to get 40 hertz 40

949
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:05,519
times a second

950
00:31:08,950 --> 00:31:07,200
and in retrospect that was a mistake on

951
00:31:11,509 --> 00:31:08,960
our part because um

952
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:11,519
that's way too long for a quantum state

953
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:12,960
we thought well you could do it

954
00:31:16,870 --> 00:31:14,720
you know nature figured it out and so

955
00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:16,880
forth but it was really

956
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:20,000
uh you don't need that it turns out

957
00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:22,640
um to make the long well i'll i'll come

958
00:31:26,789 --> 00:31:23,760
back to that point but

959
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:26,799
but going back to the uh to quantifying

960
00:31:31,269 --> 00:31:27,600
this

961
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:31,279
by uh t equals h bar over e sub g or e

962
00:31:34,549 --> 00:31:32,000
sub g equals

963
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:34,559
h bar over t the same thing to relate

964
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:35,360
the time

965
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:38,320
to the e sub g so what is the e sub g so

966
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:38,960
e sub g

967
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:41,760
is the amount of mass in superposition

968
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:42,640
the amount of mass

969
00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:45,120
separated from itself and when that meat

970
00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:47,200
reaches the threshold

971
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:48,960
at a time t or if you can sustain that

972
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:50,720
until time t you'll have a moment of

973
00:31:54,149 --> 00:31:51,440
consciousness

974
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:54,159
the amount of mass of what well of

975
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:55,279
anything but in this case of

976
00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:56,399
microtubules

977
00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:59,679
of micro of tubulin and uh and that's

978
00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:00,080
another

979
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:02,640
good question so uh if you start with it

980
00:32:06,070 --> 00:32:04,000
with with a protein

981
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:06,080
it's got all these atoms and rings and

982
00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:07,919
electrons and protons and

983
00:32:11,909 --> 00:32:11,039
this and that so but all the mass is in

984
00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:11,919
the nuclei

985
00:32:15,669 --> 00:32:14,720
you know the electrons so basically the

986
00:32:19,110 --> 00:32:15,679
the electrons

987
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:19,120
uh uh have all the the uh cool electron

988
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:21,200
dipole oscillations and quantum stuff

989
00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:22,960
that anesthesia comes in and blocks and

990
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:25,120
that causes loss of consciousness

991
00:32:28,149 --> 00:32:26,720
but if you just look at the electrons

992
00:32:29,590 --> 00:32:28,159
the mass was too low to get a

993
00:32:31,590 --> 00:32:29,600
significant e sub g

994
00:32:33,269 --> 00:32:31,600
so you have to displace the nuclei to

995
00:32:36,149 --> 00:32:33,279
get sufficient e sub g

996
00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:36,159
the the electrons what a thousandth the

997
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:37,120
uh

998
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:40,320
the the the mass of a

999
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:43,120
of a nucleus for example so we said okay

1000
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:44,720
we got to deal with the nuclei

1001
00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:47,440
but then the nuclei or okay we have to

1002
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:49,440
deal with the superposition of a protein

1003
00:32:52,549 --> 00:32:51,200
so roger gave me this assignment he said

1004
00:32:54,630 --> 00:32:52,559
you can look at it three ways

1005
00:32:55,990 --> 00:32:54,640
you can look at the protein being

1006
00:32:58,470 --> 00:32:56,000
separated from itself

1007
00:32:59,990 --> 00:32:58,480
partially by let's say ten percent of

1008
00:33:02,549 --> 00:33:00,000
its mass

1009
00:33:03,669 --> 00:33:02,559
so uh it ten percent ten percent is just

1010
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:03,679
an example right now or

1011
00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:04,960
he well that's when we use the

1012
00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:07,200
calculation okay because we're initially

1013
00:33:09,990 --> 00:33:08,480
we're thinking of a conformational

1014
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:10,000
change open and close open and close

1015
00:33:13,029 --> 00:33:11,120
the difference what you're doing right

1016
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:13,039
now with your hands is that the tubulin

1017
00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:15,200
flexing yes okay we thought there had to

1018
00:33:18,310 --> 00:33:16,960
be a conformational change

1019
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:18,320
it turns out you don't need that but

1020
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:20,640
that was the original thought

1021
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:22,320
and the difference in the flux is about

1022
00:33:27,669 --> 00:33:24,720
10 so we calculated the

1023
00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:27,679
the e sub g uh of a protein separated

1024
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:29,200
from itself by ten percent of its

1025
00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:30,640
diameter

1026
00:33:33,669 --> 00:33:32,320
and he said okay you do it that way and

1027
00:33:35,350 --> 00:33:33,679
he gave me this this formula these

1028
00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:35,360
formulas basically algebra

1029
00:33:40,149 --> 00:33:38,320
and which i was able to do and he said

1030
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:40,159
we also have to do it at the level of

1031
00:33:43,909 --> 00:33:42,960
the nucleus take the atomic nucleus of

1032
00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:43,919
each atom

1033
00:33:47,909 --> 00:33:46,240
uh so you have an electron out here but

1034
00:33:50,549 --> 00:33:47,919
the nucleus is here

1035
00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:50,559
and the nucleus can be separated from

1036
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:51,120
itself

1037
00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:53,360
by its diameter so instead of being one

1038
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:54,960
sphere it'd be two spheres

1039
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:56,480
literally next to each you have complete

1040
00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:58,480
separation so that gives a different

1041
00:34:02,549 --> 00:34:00,720
different type of equation than partial

1042
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:02,559
separation so that was two so it was

1043
00:34:06,070 --> 00:34:05,519
the protein by 10 partial separation the

1044
00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:06,080
new the

1045
00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:08,560
all those nuclei within the protein 110

1046
00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:09,280
000

1047
00:34:16,149 --> 00:34:12,800
uh atomic weight separated

1048
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:16,159
by their diameter and the third way was

1049
00:34:21,030 --> 00:34:17,679
going even smaller

1050
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:21,040
to the protons and neutrons the nucleons

1051
00:34:24,869 --> 00:34:23,839
separated from themselves so he gave me

1052
00:34:28,069 --> 00:34:24,879
the equations

1053
00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:28,079
and uh and i spent some time you know

1054
00:34:32,389 --> 00:34:29,679
doing the calculations

1055
00:34:33,909 --> 00:34:32,399
and came up with the result that

1056
00:34:35,109 --> 00:34:33,919
separation the level of the atomic

1057
00:34:36,629 --> 00:34:35,119
nuclei

1058
00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:36,639
was the dominant effect gave you the

1059
00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:38,159
highest energy and would

1060
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:41,839
occur before the others so we knew so

1061
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:43,919
we knew how to calculate for the

1062
00:34:46,550 --> 00:34:45,200
superposition

1063
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:46,560
and then you just multiply that by the

1064
00:34:52,149 --> 00:34:48,960
number of nuclei and we get the

1065
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:52,159
the uh the e sub g for a tubulin protein

1066
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:53,520
yeah when you're talking about the

1067
00:34:57,750 --> 00:34:55,280
atomic nuclei is that

1068
00:34:59,589 --> 00:34:57,760
okay the proteins are made up of well

1069
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:59,599
mostly carbon we use carbon

1070
00:35:02,950 --> 00:35:01,200
you know it's mostly carbon carbon

1071
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:02,960
chemistry but you know there's

1072
00:35:05,430 --> 00:35:04,800
phosphorus there's oxygen there's other

1073
00:35:07,910 --> 00:35:05,440
stuff but

1074
00:35:08,870 --> 00:35:07,920
but basically we we used we calculated

1075
00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:08,880
based on carbon

1076
00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:10,320
because the vast majority of the nuclei

1077
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:12,480
are carbon why do you want the energy to

1078
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:13,200
be high

1079
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:16,320
because t equals h bar over e so

1080
00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:19,200
high e would make a lower t and don't

1081
00:35:21,430 --> 00:35:20,640
you want the t to last for quite some

1082
00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:21,440
time

1083
00:35:24,470 --> 00:35:23,200
you do but you got to go with you know

1084
00:35:27,030 --> 00:35:24,480
with what nature gives you

1085
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:27,040
and and the the dot the high energy is

1086
00:35:28,870 --> 00:35:28,320
going to be the dominant effect it's

1087
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:28,880
going to happen

1088
00:35:32,390 --> 00:35:30,160
first so that's going to trigger the

1089
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:32,400
collapse before the other effects you

1090
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:33,119
know

1091
00:35:36,230 --> 00:35:34,720
if you avoided that it might collapse

1092
00:35:38,069 --> 00:35:36,240
from the the separation of the whole

1093
00:35:39,349 --> 00:35:38,079
protein or separation of the nucleons

1094
00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:39,359
but the separation of the nuclei is

1095
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:41,680
going to happen first and and and that's

1096
00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:42,400
going to that's

1097
00:35:46,630 --> 00:35:44,800
what's going to you know rule the what's

1098
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:46,640
going on so you had to deal with that

1099
00:35:50,310 --> 00:35:48,560
so that was the first thing we learned

1100
00:35:53,670 --> 00:35:50,320
so the next question was

1101
00:35:57,030 --> 00:35:53,680
okay let's say that's right uh how many

1102
00:36:00,870 --> 00:35:57,040
uh how many um

1103
00:36:03,190 --> 00:36:00,880
how many tubulins how many microtubules

1104
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:03,200
uh would you need to have a

1105
00:36:06,710 --> 00:36:04,320
superposition

1106
00:36:07,589 --> 00:36:06,720
for t so what would the e sub g a number

1107
00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:07,599
of tubulins

1108
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:10,240
be to have a t equal 25 milliseconds

1109
00:36:13,670 --> 00:36:12,000
which is what we thought probably needed

1110
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:13,680
and it turns out it's a pretty small

1111
00:36:18,069 --> 00:36:15,359
number it's only like i forget

1112
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:18,079
20 20 neurons worth if all the neurons

1113
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:19,200
in one microtubule

1114
00:36:24,150 --> 00:36:22,000
if all the if all the microtubules in

1115
00:36:26,230 --> 00:36:24,160
one neuron were in superposition

1116
00:36:27,190 --> 00:36:26,240
you would only need and because t is a

1117
00:36:31,270 --> 00:36:27,200
long time

1118
00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:31,280
uh you don't need

1119
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:34,160
very much e sub g but you have to avoid

1120
00:36:36,550 --> 00:36:35,200
decoherence

1121
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:36,560
for a long time but we weren't

1122
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:38,640
considering that yet we're putting that

1123
00:36:41,589 --> 00:36:39,520
aside

1124
00:36:42,550 --> 00:36:41,599
so for 25 milliseconds you only needed a

1125
00:36:45,109 --> 00:36:42,560
few uh

1126
00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:45,119
like 20 neurons worth so we thought well

1127
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:46,960
maybe only a fraction of the turbulence

1128
00:36:49,750 --> 00:36:47,520
are involved

1129
00:36:51,109 --> 00:36:49,760
but that seemed kind of that's seemed

1130
00:36:54,069 --> 00:36:51,119
kind of odd

1131
00:36:55,750 --> 00:36:54,079
um later we realized actually and

1132
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:55,760
several people suggested this

1133
00:37:00,069 --> 00:36:58,000
to us that you know you don't really

1134
00:37:01,589 --> 00:37:00,079
need these the quantum state to last 25

1135
00:37:04,630 --> 00:37:01,599
milliseconds to have 25

1136
00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:04,640
millisecond events in the brain and much

1137
00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:06,320
later we came around to the

1138
00:37:09,829 --> 00:37:08,800
to the idea that the the quantum

1139
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:09,839
superpositions

1140
00:37:14,710 --> 00:37:13,200
involve much more of the brain much more

1141
00:37:16,790 --> 00:37:14,720
tubulin

1142
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:16,800
for a much shorter time so because it's

1143
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:18,400
inversely related

1144
00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:22,160
so um basically for example if

1145
00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:25,920
uh if you say that there are uh

1146
00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:29,359
um 10 to the 10th uh

1147
00:37:33,109 --> 00:37:31,119
so there's about 10 bananas at 10 of the

1148
00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:33,119
eighth turbulence per neuron

1149
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:36,560
and if if uh if you have the uh

1150
00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:39,680
the t not be 25 milliseconds but be

1151
00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:43,520
say 10 megahertz a tenth of a millionth

1152
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:45,280
of a second

1153
00:37:48,550 --> 00:37:47,920
then you need a much larger amount of

1154
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:48,560
tubulin

1155
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:50,640
much larger number of microtubules much

1156
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:53,200
larger proportion of the brain

1157
00:37:57,910 --> 00:37:56,320
is still small so for example for 10

1158
00:37:59,190 --> 00:37:57,920
megahertz for oscillation for these

1159
00:38:00,710 --> 00:37:59,200
quantum events to be happening 10

1160
00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:00,720
million times a second

1161
00:38:05,589 --> 00:38:03,440
you need about 10 to the minus fifth of

1162
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:05,599
the total tubulins in the brain

1163
00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:08,880
which was uh billions and uh uh

1164
00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:12,000
well i forget millions and millions of

1165
00:38:14,310 --> 00:38:12,800
neurons

1166
00:38:16,310 --> 00:38:14,320
i have to go back and look it up but

1167
00:38:18,390 --> 00:38:16,320
it's it's a much more reasonable number

1168
00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:18,400
than just 20.

1169
00:38:21,510 --> 00:38:19,520
if i understand what you're saying is

1170
00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:21,520
that we need you know how some people

1171
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:23,119
say we only use one percent of the brain

1172
00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:24,400
what you're suggesting that's probably

1173
00:38:29,750 --> 00:38:26,320
true actually for consciousness

1174
00:38:31,829 --> 00:38:29,760
but it's not the same one percent yes

1175
00:38:33,270 --> 00:38:31,839
this could be here and then it's here it

1176
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:33,280
actually can quite literally move around

1177
00:38:35,670 --> 00:38:34,000
the brain

1178
00:38:37,109 --> 00:38:35,680
right so you may use only one percent at

1179
00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:37,119
one time but over

1180
00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:38,880
your lifetime or even maybe a day you're

1181
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:41,520
using most of it if not all of it

1182
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:44,640
right and if you were to use more that's

1183
00:38:48,069 --> 00:38:46,480
well if you were to use 100 that's

1184
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:48,079
categorized as a seizure and it's not

1185
00:38:51,190 --> 00:38:48,480
actually

1186
00:38:52,230 --> 00:38:51,200
salutary well seizures are bad and

1187
00:38:55,109 --> 00:38:52,240
seizures are

1188
00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:55,119
when all the the spikes the firings are

1189
00:38:58,150 --> 00:38:56,000
coordinated

1190
00:39:00,069 --> 00:38:58,160
and that's not conscious so that's

1191
00:39:01,910 --> 00:39:00,079
that's uh that's a pathology that's

1192
00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:01,920
that's when the all the neurons are

1193
00:39:04,790 --> 00:39:03,280
firing it's unclear what's

1194
00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:04,800
actually happening in the integration

1195
00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:06,560
side uh

1196
00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:08,800
but i think yeah but but that's that's

1197
00:39:12,310 --> 00:39:10,320
not really the same thing but

1198
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:12,320
but basically we did make a relationship

1199
00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:14,000
between the not between the fraction of

1200
00:39:16,710 --> 00:39:15,280
the brain the number of tubulins

1201
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:16,720
involved

1202
00:39:20,310 --> 00:39:18,880
the the the frequency and the intensity

1203
00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:20,320
of experience

1204
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:23,040
and we based that on on a couple things

1205
00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:24,720
extrapolated for example

1206
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:29,040
uh meditators uh trained meditators have

1207
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:32,160
really high eeg compared to uh normal

1208
00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:33,200
people

1209
00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:36,320
and uh and as a baseline or when they're

1210
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:38,880
baseline and when they meditate both and

1211
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:40,320
this was done in uh

1212
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:42,480
richard davidson's lab i don't know 15

1213
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:43,680
20 years ago

1214
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:45,599
and the dalai lama sent his best

1215
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:47,119
meditators over and they studied him

1216
00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:48,320
with eeg

1217
00:39:52,550 --> 00:39:51,359
and at baseline uh their i forgot the

1218
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:52,560
frequent the baseline they were much

1219
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:54,160
higher and when they meditated they were

1220
00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:55,520
like off the charts

1221
00:39:58,630 --> 00:39:58,000
as an aside what does he use to qualify

1222
00:40:01,829 --> 00:39:58,640
them as a

1223
00:40:04,630 --> 00:40:01,839
as the best meditators that was

1224
00:40:05,109 --> 00:40:04,640
whoever his choice okay i got it i got

1225
00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:05,119
it

1226
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:07,440
i don't know we'll give him we'll give

1227
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:09,119
him that he should know

1228
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:12,000
so uh so based on that eeg gets gets

1229
00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:12,560
higher

1230
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:14,720
and uh there are some other inklings of

1231
00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:16,079
that you know if

1232
00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:17,680
if you're in a car accident and the car

1233
00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:19,520
is spinning uh

1234
00:40:22,950 --> 00:40:21,680
supposedly the external world slows down

1235
00:40:24,230 --> 00:40:22,960
everything slows down

1236
00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:24,240
and that could be because you're having

1237
00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:26,240
more conscious moments per second

1238
00:40:29,589 --> 00:40:28,400
than you were before the accident

1239
00:40:31,270 --> 00:40:29,599
occurred and

1240
00:40:32,710 --> 00:40:31,280
great athletes like michael jordan said

1241
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:32,720
when he's playing well

1242
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:34,400
it's because the other team is in slow

1243
00:40:38,790 --> 00:40:35,920
motion and so

1244
00:40:40,309 --> 00:40:38,800
uh i recall i recall you saying this i

1245
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:40,319
spoke to a neil seth i'm sure you've

1246
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:42,240
heard of him yes i know neil yeah

1247
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:43,920
i asked him about this about the time

1248
00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:46,240
slowing effects and if it is indeed a

1249
00:40:49,589 --> 00:40:47,599
real effect or if it's just your

1250
00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:49,599
perception of time slows down

1251
00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:51,520
and he said what's been done is you

1252
00:40:55,910 --> 00:40:53,520
measure people on bungee jumps

1253
00:40:57,910 --> 00:40:55,920
and you show them perhaps a clock and

1254
00:40:59,430 --> 00:40:57,920
they're not able to recall

1255
00:41:01,190 --> 00:40:59,440
milliseconds at a higher rate than

1256
00:41:03,109 --> 00:41:01,200
people who are not under the bungie

1257
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:03,119
yeah you know i know that study that's

1258
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:04,480
david eagleman's study

1259
00:41:10,630 --> 00:41:08,560
and it's it was kind of a it was like uh

1260
00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:10,640
i don't know i'm not sure i believe it i

1261
00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:12,720
don't think so just a few minor studies

1262
00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:13,920
that haven't decisively

1263
00:41:17,190 --> 00:41:16,000
made the case okay continue we don't

1264
00:41:20,230 --> 00:41:17,200
really know but

1265
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:20,240
but it seems to me that consciousness

1266
00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:22,480
the the the intensity of experience is

1267
00:41:25,190 --> 00:41:24,000
related to the frequency of the events

1268
00:41:27,750 --> 00:41:25,200
that you're having

1269
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:27,760
so if you're if you're excited uh if

1270
00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:29,200
you're in an altered state

1271
00:41:32,309 --> 00:41:30,560
if you're doing something you really

1272
00:41:34,790 --> 00:41:32,319
love uh

1273
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:34,800
you're having more conscious moments per

1274
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:35,440
second

1275
00:41:40,470 --> 00:41:38,480
if you can measure it but to you the

1276
00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:40,480
external world slows down

1277
00:41:44,230 --> 00:41:42,400
and when you're on psychedelics it seems

1278
00:41:46,150 --> 00:41:44,240
like the brain isn't

1279
00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:46,160
firing as much or using as many neurons

1280
00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:47,280
is that correct

1281
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:49,040
that's a very good question yeah so

1282
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:51,200
that's the study of

1283
00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:55,359
uh robin carhart harris from 2012

1284
00:41:58,790 --> 00:41:57,520
and he presented that at the tucson

1285
00:42:02,470 --> 00:41:58,800
conference

1286
00:42:02,870 --> 00:42:02,480
and uh amazing study um what they did

1287
00:42:05,190 --> 00:42:02,880
was

1288
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:05,200
they they put people in an mri scanner

1289
00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:07,040
they also did eeg

1290
00:42:13,109 --> 00:42:10,480
so it works for mri but in the

1291
00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:13,119
in the mri scanner and in the eeg they

1292
00:42:17,589 --> 00:42:16,000
then gave them intravenous psilocybin

1293
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:17,599
which is the active ingredient in magic

1294
00:42:22,150 --> 00:42:19,680
mushrooms psychedelic mushrooms

1295
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:22,160
and then later you know they they had

1296
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:24,160
them report what they were experiencing

1297
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:24,800
at the time

1298
00:42:31,109 --> 00:42:29,520
and later they reported their experience

1299
00:42:32,550 --> 00:42:31,119
and they were all basically having a

1300
00:42:33,589 --> 00:42:32,560
psychedelic experience they're basically

1301
00:42:35,990 --> 00:42:33,599
all tripping

1302
00:42:37,589 --> 00:42:36,000
at the time and in the scanner they kind

1303
00:42:38,390 --> 00:42:37,599
of i think they expected their their

1304
00:42:40,870 --> 00:42:38,400
brains to

1305
00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:40,880
kind of light up like pinball machines

1306
00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:41,760
but they didn't

1307
00:42:46,150 --> 00:42:43,520
their brains look cold and dark like

1308
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:46,160
they were unconscious almost comatose

1309
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:48,400
and in the eeg they expected i'm not

1310
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:49,839
sure what they expected but what they

1311
00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:52,880
got was almost flatline eeg

1312
00:42:58,950 --> 00:42:57,440
and it was it was paradoxical and

1313
00:43:00,710 --> 00:42:58,960
those debate those results are still

1314
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:00,720
being debated what i think

1315
00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:03,280
and robin didn't like this idea and uh a

1316
00:43:07,109 --> 00:43:04,240
lot of people don't

1317
00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:07,119
but uh what i thought was that under

1318
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:08,960
those circumstances

1319
00:43:16,230 --> 00:43:12,000
um consciousness is has

1320
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:16,240
gone into the microtubule quantum states

1321
00:43:21,270 --> 00:43:19,200
almost completely and the membranes

1322
00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:21,280
which perform cognition

1323
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:24,640
are violent are quiet silent you don't

1324
00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:25,440
need uh

1325
00:43:32,390 --> 00:43:29,440
membranes

1326
00:43:33,270 --> 00:43:32,400
you don't have to well you need what i'm

1327
00:43:34,790 --> 00:43:33,280
let me back up

1328
00:43:37,349 --> 00:43:34,800
what the brain needs energy for is to

1329
00:43:39,270 --> 00:43:37,359
maintain uh membrane potentials

1330
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:39,280
the quantum the quantum microtubule

1331
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:40,880
stuff is very low energy you don't need

1332
00:43:44,870 --> 00:43:42,079
much energy

1333
00:43:45,910 --> 00:43:44,880
so um if you're tripping and you don't

1334
00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:45,920
have to do anything

1335
00:43:49,030 --> 00:43:47,680
cognitive you don't have to drive a car

1336
00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:49,040
you have to talk to anybody

1337
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:50,800
you're just laying there in your own

1338
00:43:54,870 --> 00:43:52,960
mind your membranes can be

1339
00:43:56,470 --> 00:43:54,880
can be can be quiet consciousness has

1340
00:43:57,190 --> 00:43:56,480
gone to a deeper level into the quantum

1341
00:43:59,349 --> 00:43:57,200
state

1342
00:44:00,550 --> 00:43:59,359
so you don't require energy for membrane

1343
00:44:03,510 --> 00:44:00,560
membrane potentials

1344
00:44:04,069 --> 00:44:03,520
for firing and uh you know by the same

1345
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:04,079
token

1346
00:44:07,109 --> 00:44:05,599
you wouldn't want somebody in that

1347
00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:07,119
condition driving you home their

1348
00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:08,000
cognition

1349
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:09,440
wouldn't be very good if they're if

1350
00:44:12,710 --> 00:44:11,280
they're deep into a quantum

1351
00:44:15,349 --> 00:44:12,720
consciousness state

1352
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:15,359
so that was my explanation for why

1353
00:44:19,670 --> 00:44:16,640
people who are tripping

1354
00:44:22,309 --> 00:44:19,680
have low uh what

1355
00:44:24,069 --> 00:44:22,319
their brains appear to be silent and

1356
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:24,079
dormant and their eeg is flat

1357
00:44:27,030 --> 00:44:25,200
it's because everything's gone to a

1358
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:27,040
deeper level and if you get to that

1359
00:44:30,950 --> 00:44:28,400
level you find

1360
00:44:31,589 --> 00:44:30,960
much much faster and more active

1361
00:44:33,430 --> 00:44:31,599
activity

1362
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:33,440
at the quantum level but the classical

1363
00:44:37,510 --> 00:44:35,040
level things are

1364
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:37,520
on hold okay so let me make a layman

1365
00:44:41,589 --> 00:44:38,480
rudimentary

1366
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:41,599
analogy let's imagine that what the eeg

1367
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:42,480
is measuring

1368
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:44,480
is the rate at which or the speed at

1369
00:44:47,349 --> 00:44:45,920
which you're moving about or a group of

1370
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:47,359
people are moving about in a room let's

1371
00:44:49,990 --> 00:44:48,480
say this

1372
00:44:51,270 --> 00:44:50,000
and they measure at like five kilometers

1373
00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:51,280
per hour they're walking but what you're

1374
00:44:53,510 --> 00:44:51,760
saying is

1375
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:53,520
when you're under an altered state of

1376
00:44:56,069 --> 00:44:54,640
consciousness it's like you're going

1377
00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:56,079
into a deeper room let's say the

1378
00:44:58,230 --> 00:44:56,640
basement

1379
00:44:59,829 --> 00:44:58,240
and now you're moving rapidly but the

1380
00:45:01,430 --> 00:44:59,839
eeg is showing a small amount because

1381
00:45:03,589 --> 00:45:01,440
it's only measuring what's in this room

1382
00:45:05,430 --> 00:45:03,599
is that somewhat correct yeah you kind

1383
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:05,440
of go into the basement you go into the

1384
00:45:07,990 --> 00:45:05,760
uh

1385
00:45:09,990 --> 00:45:08,000
the underground where it's all quantum

1386
00:45:12,069 --> 00:45:10,000
and the energy is very very low

1387
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:12,079
and you've do you've dissociated from

1388
00:45:16,390 --> 00:45:13,520
what's happening at the membrane

1389
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:16,400
you've you've gone you've gone deep uh

1390
00:45:19,990 --> 00:45:18,800
into the i like to call it the quantum

1391
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:20,000
underground is the actual

1392
00:45:24,630 --> 00:45:22,480
decoherence-free subspace where quantum

1393
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:24,640
stuff stuff is happening in biology

1394
00:45:28,950 --> 00:45:26,400
but the membranes are on vacation the

1395
00:45:30,630 --> 00:45:28,960
membranes don't have to depolarize you

1396
00:45:32,390 --> 00:45:30,640
don't have to trigger firings

1397
00:45:34,230 --> 00:45:32,400
you're not doing anything actively other

1398
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:34,240
than thinking other than being conscious

1399
00:45:37,349 --> 00:45:36,720
your body you you're not moving anything

1400
00:45:39,190 --> 00:45:37,359
you're not

1401
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:39,200
doing performing any cognitive function

1402
00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:43,589
and by the way um i'm gonna digress a

1403
00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:45,200
little bit but in some recent work i've

1404
00:45:49,829 --> 00:45:46,560
been doing

1405
00:45:51,670 --> 00:45:49,839
with allison watri at ucsd who studies

1406
00:45:53,349 --> 00:45:51,680
these cerebral organoids we're trying to

1407
00:45:54,309 --> 00:45:53,359
design experiments to see if cerebral

1408
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:54,319
organoids

1409
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:56,480
can be conscious we've kind of come to

1410
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:58,400
the conclusion that

1411
00:46:01,829 --> 00:45:59,760
that there's cognition and there's

1412
00:46:04,950 --> 00:46:01,839
consciousness cognition

1413
00:46:06,470 --> 00:46:04,960
is you know stuff that we do uh that

1414
00:46:08,309 --> 00:46:06,480
could be conscious or not conscious

1415
00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:08,319
driving for example walking

1416
00:46:11,510 --> 00:46:09,920
sometimes you're walking and or i'm

1417
00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:11,520
walking my mind's wandering i'm

1418
00:46:15,349 --> 00:46:12,800
somewhere else

1419
00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:15,359
uh i'm technically paying attention but

1420
00:46:17,829 --> 00:46:16,000
uh to

1421
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:17,839
the sidewalk and whatnot but i'm not

1422
00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:19,440
that conscious of it then all of a

1423
00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:20,880
sudden something happens

1424
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:22,800
i see somebody or horn honks and then my

1425
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:24,160
consciousness returns

1426
00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:26,880
to my cognition so cognition can be

1427
00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:28,960
either conscious or non-conscious

1428
00:46:32,150 --> 00:46:30,880
so we're thinking that we're the way

1429
00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:32,160
we're expressing now is that

1430
00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:34,240
consciousness is supervening

1431
00:46:37,510 --> 00:46:36,000
on cognition and kind of takes over

1432
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:37,520
cognition and

1433
00:46:41,430 --> 00:46:39,520
when it needs to so you can be on

1434
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:41,440
autopilot most of the time driving or

1435
00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:42,079
walking or

1436
00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:44,640
doing whatever without consciousness and

1437
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:46,079
then suddenly you need it

1438
00:46:49,109 --> 00:46:47,839
and it shows up and supervenes on

1439
00:46:50,790 --> 00:46:49,119
cognition

1440
00:46:52,390 --> 00:46:50,800
is this the opposite of the prevailing

1441
00:46:53,670 --> 00:46:52,400
view that cognition supervenes on

1442
00:46:55,030 --> 00:46:53,680
consciousness rather than the other way

1443
00:46:57,030 --> 00:46:55,040
around

1444
00:46:58,550 --> 00:46:57,040
if that's the prevailing view yes it

1445
00:46:59,109 --> 00:46:58,560
would be is that what the prevailing

1446
00:47:00,950 --> 00:46:59,119
view is

1447
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:00,960
no i'm well i'm asking you you know much

1448
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:03,359
more i don't actually i've never

1449
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:05,680
uh i've heard the term super venue it's

1450
00:47:09,430 --> 00:47:06,960
it it's a

1451
00:47:10,390 --> 00:47:09,440
it's a term in philosophy and but i

1452
00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:10,400
always thought it applied to

1453
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:11,440
consciousness

1454
00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:13,440
supervising like and kind of taking over

1455
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:14,560
cognition

1456
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:16,240
it could go the other way around if you

1457
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:17,920
know but no i think consciousness

1458
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:19,359
supervenes on cognition

1459
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:21,280
and in fact we can't measure

1460
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:23,040
consciousness in the brain

1461
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:25,440
or organoids or anything but what we

1462
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:26,720
might be able to measure

1463
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:30,160
is the effect of consciousness on

1464
00:47:35,349 --> 00:47:33,280
cognition because cognition

1465
00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:35,359
can be computable so go back to roger

1466
00:47:41,349 --> 00:47:37,760
rogers point about uh

1467
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:41,359
consciously non-computable well

1468
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:42,640
if you had something you could observe

1469
00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:44,640
in the brain that was computable

1470
00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:46,480
and then consciousness came in you would

1471
00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:48,240
you would see deviation

1472
00:47:51,430 --> 00:47:49,760
from computable behavior in

1473
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:51,440
hodgkin-huxley neurons

1474
00:47:55,270 --> 00:47:52,960
and that's exactly what we're trying to

1475
00:47:57,990 --> 00:47:55,280
do in this study we're proposing

1476
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:58,000
that is to look for it for for the

1477
00:48:02,309 --> 00:48:00,480
shadow of consciousness to look for

1478
00:48:04,309 --> 00:48:02,319
the shadow consciousness casts on

1479
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:04,319
cognition deviation from

1480
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:06,000
computable behavior in neurons and

1481
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:08,160
hodgkin-huxley neurons for example

1482
00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:10,640
because of consciousness and to see if

1483
00:48:13,990 --> 00:48:12,240
that goes away with anesthesia

1484
00:48:15,510 --> 00:48:14,000
so anesthesia should make you more

1485
00:48:19,589 --> 00:48:15,520
computable

1486
00:48:21,430 --> 00:48:19,599
more automatic more autopilot-like

1487
00:48:23,829 --> 00:48:21,440
and we do see that type of behavior

1488
00:48:25,190 --> 00:48:23,839
under anesthesia without consciousness

1489
00:48:27,270 --> 00:48:25,200
so that's a way of looking at

1490
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:27,280
consciousness by looking at the effect

1491
00:48:30,790 --> 00:48:28,240
it has on

1492
00:48:31,589 --> 00:48:30,800
cognition as another aside is there a

1493
00:48:35,589 --> 00:48:31,599
way of using

1494
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:35,599
anesthesia to make a truth serum

1495
00:48:42,150 --> 00:48:39,280
you know uh pentethal was used for that

1496
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:42,160
uh brevitol back in the old days and it

1497
00:48:48,150 --> 00:48:42,800
it

1498
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:48,160
you could you could kind of uh uh

1499
00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:51,040
inhibit the just you can kind of inhibit

1500
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:52,000
what is normally

1501
00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:54,960
uh inhibitory and and kind of just

1502
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:55,760
disinhibit

1503
00:49:00,150 --> 00:48:58,800
the subject and get the truth out of it

1504
00:49:02,230 --> 00:49:00,160
i was never really impressed with that

1505
00:49:02,790 --> 00:49:02,240
and as an anesthesiologist i wasn't that

1506
00:49:06,069 --> 00:49:02,800
interested

1507
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:06,079
in it because uh because you know well

1508
00:49:08,549 --> 00:49:07,359
we don't use pentathlon anymore but

1509
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:08,559
propofol

1510
00:49:11,910 --> 00:49:10,720
and it's chewing light doses they are a

1511
00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:11,920
little disinhibited

1512
00:49:15,750 --> 00:49:14,160
and you just before they go to sleep

1513
00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:15,760
when they're waking up they may

1514
00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:18,960
say something uh uh

1515
00:49:22,549 --> 00:49:21,520
that's personal or you know but yeah

1516
00:49:25,829 --> 00:49:22,559
let's make it

1517
00:49:27,510 --> 00:49:25,839
through that as fast as possible and uh

1518
00:49:29,829 --> 00:49:27,520
so i'm not interested in using it using

1519
00:49:31,030 --> 00:49:29,839
that but but you can disinhibit somebody

1520
00:49:33,190 --> 00:49:31,040
at just the right dose

1521
00:49:34,470 --> 00:49:33,200
but it's very very transitory unless you

1522
00:49:36,630 --> 00:49:34,480
try to keep it their level

1523
00:49:37,910 --> 00:49:36,640
and then they're they're unconscious so

1524
00:49:39,990 --> 00:49:37,920
um

1525
00:49:41,670 --> 00:49:40,000
uh but you you mentioned psychedelics

1526
00:49:42,630 --> 00:49:41,680
before and when another experiment i

1527
00:49:45,829 --> 00:49:42,640
like to do is

1528
00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:45,839
i would predict well we predict to have

1529
00:49:49,510 --> 00:49:47,520
evidence that anesthesia slows and

1530
00:49:51,349 --> 00:49:49,520
dampens these oscillations

1531
00:49:53,109 --> 00:49:51,359
and that psychedelics would increase the

1532
00:49:55,589 --> 00:49:53,119
frequency and uh

1533
00:49:57,510 --> 00:49:55,599
we're going to try and look at that also

1534
00:49:59,270 --> 00:49:57,520
increase the frequency oscillations

1535
00:50:00,630 --> 00:49:59,280
increase the frequency of consciousness

1536
00:50:02,549 --> 00:50:00,640
which would account

1537
00:50:05,190 --> 00:50:02,559
at least in part for the psychedelic

1538
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:06,790
okay now as for collaborating with

1539
00:50:10,069 --> 00:50:08,480
penrose do you mind giving an example of

1540
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:10,079
a recent one how does it look

1541
00:50:13,349 --> 00:50:11,520
what sorts of problems do you work on

1542
00:50:15,910 --> 00:50:13,359
let's take a recent example

1543
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:15,920
well right now we're trying to finish a

1544
00:50:19,349 --> 00:50:17,680
chapter for a book

1545
00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:19,359
called quantum quantum mechanics and

1546
00:50:24,309 --> 00:50:21,359
consciousness edited by

1547
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:24,319
shang gao i got this one from you uh

1548
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:25,040
that's

1549
00:50:31,589 --> 00:50:29,520
you were editors

1550
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:31,599
yeah but but that was a mistake that's

1551
00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:32,559
not really our book

1552
00:50:36,069 --> 00:50:34,319
they used our name but we had nothing

1553
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:36,079
well i i hope it's your book because it

1554
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:37,440
took me quite a bit of time just to get

1555
00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:38,960
through a bit of it

1556
00:50:42,069 --> 00:50:41,440
is it any good i've never read it oh

1557
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:42,079
okay

1558
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:43,920
that's definitely not your book yeah

1559
00:50:46,470 --> 00:50:45,119
well

1560
00:50:48,150 --> 00:50:46,480
i was primarily interested in the

1561
00:50:48,950 --> 00:50:48,160
article by you and penrose okay and

1562
00:50:53,030 --> 00:50:48,960
that's it

1563
00:50:54,630 --> 00:50:53,040
i'll stand by that but um but uh

1564
00:50:56,790 --> 00:50:54,640
we're we're writing a chapter now for a

1565
00:50:58,150 --> 00:50:56,800
book uh by shanghai called quantum

1566
00:51:00,549 --> 00:50:58,160
mechanics and consciousness and

1567
00:51:02,230 --> 00:51:00,559
and dave chalmers has has an article and

1568
00:51:04,549 --> 00:51:02,240
a lot of people have articles

1569
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:04,559
and uh um you know i was thrilled to

1570
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:05,520
write another article

1571
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:08,000
with roger but he's dif he's difficult

1572
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:09,119
to work with

1573
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:10,640
because he's very meticulous he's got

1574
00:51:13,829 --> 00:51:12,240
like 20 things going on and everything

1575
00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:13,839
has to be perfect so

1576
00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:15,760
to make a long story short the the

1577
00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:18,880
chapter is three years late

1578
00:51:25,670 --> 00:51:22,079
and the absolute drop dead deadline is

1579
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:25,680
uh uh sunday this sunday and uh

1580
00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:27,680
my part i you know i keep working on but

1581
00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:28,880
i'm basically uh

1582
00:51:33,109 --> 00:51:31,599
waiting on his part and uh he's actually

1583
00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:33,119
putting in some new stuff

1584
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:34,880
about retroactivity backward time

1585
00:51:39,589 --> 00:51:36,960
effects and uh

1586
00:51:41,349 --> 00:51:39,599
effect and uh and so it's worth waiting

1587
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:41,359
for and i hope the uh

1588
00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:44,640
the editor feels that way also but um

1589
00:51:51,510 --> 00:51:48,240
uh so that and now we do it with email

1590
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:51,520
we first started we did it with uh faxes

1591
00:51:56,470 --> 00:51:54,480
and uh i still somewhere have uh rolls

1592
00:51:58,150 --> 00:51:56,480
and rolls of fax paper with his original

1593
00:52:00,549 --> 00:51:58,160
artworks and drawings that i'm

1594
00:52:01,589 --> 00:52:00,559
trying to preserve and uh occasional

1595
00:52:03,829 --> 00:52:01,599
phone calls

1596
00:52:05,270 --> 00:52:03,839
and uh it was slow going when i first

1597
00:52:07,829 --> 00:52:05,280
started collaborating

1598
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:07,839
uh with roger uh his wife vanessa said

1599
00:52:09,910 --> 00:52:09,440
uh you know i encourage you but you

1600
00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:09,920
should know

1601
00:52:15,990 --> 00:52:14,000
be prepared it'll be very slow going uh

1602
00:52:17,430 --> 00:52:16,000
everything has to be just right before

1603
00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:17,440
he signs off on it

1604
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:18,960
and he's very meticulous and he's way

1605
00:52:23,670 --> 00:52:21,760
over committed so just be patient

1606
00:52:25,190 --> 00:52:23,680
and i'm glad he told me that she told me

1607
00:52:28,390 --> 00:52:25,200
that because it turned out

1608
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:28,400
to be true in fact it led to

1609
00:52:32,790 --> 00:52:30,720
an interesting uh we had been working on

1610
00:52:34,790 --> 00:52:32,800
the original uh

1611
00:52:36,549 --> 00:52:34,800
article that i mentioned earlier and

1612
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:36,559
calculating all this stuff

1613
00:52:39,750 --> 00:52:37,920
for about a year i didn't even have a

1614
00:52:42,549 --> 00:52:39,760
didn't have a manuscript

1615
00:52:44,150 --> 00:52:42,559
but in the meantime uh pat churchlin who

1616
00:52:44,829 --> 00:52:44,160
had been at that conference that roger

1617
00:52:47,829 --> 00:52:44,839
went to

1618
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:47,839
um uh back at cambridge uh

1619
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:49,920
and a grad student came out with kind of

1620
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:51,839
a preemptive attack piece

1621
00:52:55,589 --> 00:52:53,760
in the journal of consciousness studies

1622
00:52:57,750 --> 00:52:55,599
attempting to refute our

1623
00:52:59,829 --> 00:52:57,760
ideas before we even published anything

1624
00:53:02,069 --> 00:52:59,839
is this tag mark and

1625
00:53:03,829 --> 00:53:02,079
that was later that was another uh bogus

1626
00:53:04,790 --> 00:53:03,839
uh attack well i'll come i'll come to

1627
00:53:07,349 --> 00:53:04,800
him uh

1628
00:53:09,109 --> 00:53:07,359
but um now this is pat churchlin and a

1629
00:53:13,430 --> 00:53:09,119
grad student rick rush

1630
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:13,440
and uh um she uh

1631
00:53:16,790 --> 00:53:15,119
materialist reductionist

1632
00:53:18,549 --> 00:53:16,800
computationalist

1633
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:18,559
and they spent the first part of their

1634
00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:20,960
article uh attacking the uh

1635
00:53:24,230 --> 00:53:22,480
the girdle's theorem and

1636
00:53:26,309 --> 00:53:24,240
non-computability in the second half

1637
00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:26,319
attacking microtubules

1638
00:53:29,670 --> 00:53:29,040
and uh so and they're really snotty

1639
00:53:32,230 --> 00:53:29,680
about it

1640
00:53:33,589 --> 00:53:32,240
and uh the the title of their article

1641
00:53:35,510 --> 00:53:33,599
you know roger's famous for a lot of

1642
00:53:38,150 --> 00:53:35,520
things including penrose tilings

1643
00:53:40,829 --> 00:53:38,160
tiling a plane with geometry and so the

1644
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:40,839
title of their article was uh penrose's

1645
00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:42,160
toilings

1646
00:53:47,670 --> 00:53:45,839
were gaps

1647
00:53:49,510 --> 00:53:47,680
because there are no gaps in his tilings

1648
00:53:50,549 --> 00:53:49,520
but there's toilings in terms of his

1649
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:50,559
ideas

1650
00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:52,559
and the first gaps were about the

1651
00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:54,240
girdle's theorem that they attacked

1652
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:56,400
the second was about microtubules well

1653
00:53:58,630 --> 00:53:57,680
let's give it to them that's a clever

1654
00:54:03,190 --> 00:53:58,640
title

1655
00:54:06,549 --> 00:54:03,200
said for example that uh

1656
00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:06,559
the penrose hammer off hypothesis was no

1657
00:54:11,349 --> 00:54:07,680
better supported

1658
00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:11,359
than one in a gazillion

1659
00:54:17,990 --> 00:54:15,280
caterpillar with hookah hypotheses

1660
00:54:18,390 --> 00:54:18,000
a reference to uh alice in wonderland

1661
00:54:20,710 --> 00:54:18,400
that

1662
00:54:22,470 --> 00:54:20,720
uh this is a quite literally a pipe

1663
00:54:23,670 --> 00:54:22,480
dream pipe dream they're basically

1664
00:54:26,309 --> 00:54:23,680
saying we're

1665
00:54:27,589 --> 00:54:26,319
we're bsing everybody you know that's

1666
00:54:29,190 --> 00:54:27,599
basically what they were saying and they

1667
00:54:31,670 --> 00:54:29,200
were we're full of them

1668
00:54:33,270 --> 00:54:31,680
so that was pretty snotty and but it was

1669
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:33,280
sufficiently snotty to uh

1670
00:54:39,270 --> 00:54:36,640
provoke roger into into responding

1671
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:39,280
fully and the uh the editor the

1672
00:54:41,430 --> 00:54:40,960
publisher of the journal said you can

1673
00:54:44,069 --> 00:54:41,440
have

1674
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:44,079
or you can reply on the next issue but

1675
00:54:48,950 --> 00:54:46,480
i'll need a manuscript in two weeks

1676
00:54:50,150 --> 00:54:48,960
and so i said oh my gosh you know it's

1677
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:50,160
been a year we don't have a manuscript

1678
00:54:53,829 --> 00:54:52,319
how can we possibly do this in two weeks

1679
00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:53,839
well we got on the phone and roger said

1680
00:54:57,750 --> 00:54:56,000
i'll tell you what i can i can answer

1681
00:55:00,230 --> 00:54:57,760
all the girdle serum stuff

1682
00:55:01,670 --> 00:55:00,240
you answer all the microtubule stuff put

1683
00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:01,680
the two parts together

1684
00:55:06,549 --> 00:55:04,480
write a common abstract and i can do my

1685
00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:06,559
part in in two weeks i said i could do

1686
00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:06,960
my

1687
00:55:13,990 --> 00:55:12,480
the microtubule stuff was was pretty

1688
00:55:16,150 --> 00:55:14,000
easy actually

1689
00:55:18,390 --> 00:55:16,160
for example their main point what they

1690
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:18,400
thought was their killer argument

1691
00:55:23,109 --> 00:55:20,720
was that uh there's a drug called

1692
00:55:26,390 --> 00:55:23,119
colchicine which is used in gout

1693
00:55:26,950 --> 00:55:26,400
gout is arthritis where immune cells go

1694
00:55:29,589 --> 00:55:26,960
into

1695
00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:29,599
joints like the big toe the great toe

1696
00:55:31,910 --> 00:55:30,400
and uh

1697
00:55:33,510 --> 00:55:31,920
and cause tremendous inflammation and

1698
00:55:36,710 --> 00:55:33,520
swelling and pain it's very

1699
00:55:39,910 --> 00:55:36,720
it's very painful and um

1700
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:39,920
and yet uh when you take because it deep

1701
00:55:43,109 --> 00:55:41,440
polymerizes the microtubules and that

1702
00:55:45,510 --> 00:55:43,119
paralyzes the immune cells

1703
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:45,520
from migrating into the joint so the

1704
00:55:49,109 --> 00:55:47,440
microtubules are depolymerized

1705
00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:49,119
and they said see microtubules are deep

1706
00:55:52,630 --> 00:55:50,720
polymerized and you don't people

1707
00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:52,640
who with gout who take colchicine don't

1708
00:55:56,230 --> 00:55:54,480
lose consciousness therefore

1709
00:55:57,510 --> 00:55:56,240
microtubules must be unnecessary for

1710
00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:57,520
consciousness

1711
00:56:00,549 --> 00:55:59,119
right but it doesn't cross the blood

1712
00:56:01,990 --> 00:56:00,559
brain it's just not

1713
00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:02,000
right coaching does not cross the

1714
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:04,079
blood-brain barrier uh

1715
00:56:07,430 --> 00:56:06,000
number two it only affects microtubules

1716
00:56:09,030 --> 00:56:07,440
they're wrapped they're constantly

1717
00:56:10,309 --> 00:56:09,040
assembling and disassembling and those

1718
00:56:12,710 --> 00:56:10,319
in the brain don't

1719
00:56:14,789 --> 00:56:12,720
they're quite stable okay which is why

1720
00:56:16,309 --> 00:56:14,799
uh you can store memory in them

1721
00:56:17,829 --> 00:56:16,319
and i found a paper where somebody

1722
00:56:20,789 --> 00:56:17,839
actually injected colchicine

1723
00:56:22,309 --> 00:56:20,799
into the uh into the the brain of

1724
00:56:23,589 --> 00:56:22,319
animals and just wiped them out they

1725
00:56:25,750 --> 00:56:23,599
were demolished

1726
00:56:27,190 --> 00:56:25,760
so i answered that and uh there's some

1727
00:56:27,589 --> 00:56:27,200
other stuff and roger ants the girls

1728
00:56:30,549 --> 00:56:27,599
there

1729
00:56:31,750 --> 00:56:30,559
put an abstract together and uh we wrote

1730
00:56:35,430 --> 00:56:31,760
this paper uh

1731
00:56:38,150 --> 00:56:35,440
uh gaps what gaps response to aggression

1732
00:56:38,789 --> 00:56:38,160
that was our first paper in 95. and then

1733
00:56:41,589 --> 00:56:38,799
uh

1734
00:56:42,390 --> 00:56:41,599
next year we had two papers in 96 and

1735
00:56:46,950 --> 00:56:42,400
then

1736
00:56:50,390 --> 00:56:46,960
rehashed that as an

1737
00:56:53,430 --> 00:56:50,400
updated version in 2018 and uh

1738
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:53,440
2016. and now this this paper which uh

1739
00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:54,640
we're writing uh

1740
00:56:57,990 --> 00:56:57,760
right now so maybe half a dozen papers

1741
00:57:01,829 --> 00:56:58,000
over

1742
00:57:05,270 --> 00:57:04,549
now going to this backward time right

1743
00:57:07,510 --> 00:57:05,280
aspect

1744
00:57:09,030 --> 00:57:07,520
i heard you mention libits experiments

1745
00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:09,040
and that they don't necessarily show a

1746
00:57:11,829 --> 00:57:10,160
lack of free will

1747
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:11,839
but perhaps the free will propagates

1748
00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:13,440
backward in time now can you explain

1749
00:57:17,109 --> 00:57:14,720
that

1750
00:57:18,789 --> 00:57:17,119
well libbet did these experiments in uh

1751
00:57:19,270 --> 00:57:18,799
well he did two sets of experiments the

1752
00:57:20,870 --> 00:57:19,280
first

1753
00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:20,880
set of experiments that roger wrote

1754
00:57:24,069 --> 00:57:23,280
about in his uh book the emperor's new

1755
00:57:25,910 --> 00:57:24,079
mind

1756
00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:25,920
uh were sensory experiments where he had

1757
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:27,440
people uh

1758
00:57:32,069 --> 00:57:30,559
uh under in neurosurgery he worked with

1759
00:57:34,630 --> 00:57:32,079
a neurosurgeon named bertram

1760
00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:34,640
uh epstein who by the way was the the

1761
00:57:39,190 --> 00:57:35,280
husband

1762
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:39,200
of uh diane sorry bertram feinstein

1763
00:57:42,309 --> 00:57:40,960
who was the husband of dianne feinstein

1764
00:57:44,630 --> 00:57:42,319
the the governor

1765
00:57:46,470 --> 00:57:44,640
sorry the senator from california she's

1766
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:46,480
still around he passed away years ago

1767
00:57:49,670 --> 00:57:48,640
but he was a neurosurgeon and live at

1768
00:57:52,630 --> 00:57:49,680
work with him

1769
00:57:54,390 --> 00:57:52,640
and so he had patients that he did uh

1770
00:57:56,309 --> 00:57:54,400
neurosurgery on well awake

1771
00:57:57,750 --> 00:57:56,319
so he would drill a hole and numb it up

1772
00:57:59,030 --> 00:57:57,760
with local anesthetic and once you get

1773
00:57:59,750 --> 00:57:59,040
into the brain you can operate on the

1774
00:58:01,910 --> 00:57:59,760
brain

1775
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:01,920
it doesn't hurt but you you make you

1776
00:58:05,270 --> 00:58:03,359
numb up the hole

1777
00:58:06,549 --> 00:58:05,280
and you can access the brain and for

1778
00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:06,559
example for the

1779
00:58:09,910 --> 00:58:09,359
the for the finger on the opposite hand

1780
00:58:11,349 --> 00:58:09,920
so

1781
00:58:13,030 --> 00:58:11,359
libya did experiments like he would

1782
00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:13,040
stimulate the finger and record from the

1783
00:58:20,470 --> 00:58:13,520
brain

1784
00:58:23,510 --> 00:58:20,480
and uh and then uh

1785
00:58:26,710 --> 00:58:23,520
see uh when the when the subject

1786
00:58:30,230 --> 00:58:26,720
was conscious of feeling the finger

1787
00:58:31,990 --> 00:58:30,240
so um you would expect or i would expect

1788
00:58:33,270 --> 00:58:32,000
not knowing anything beforehand that if

1789
00:58:34,309 --> 00:58:33,280
you stimulate the brain you feel it

1790
00:58:35,910 --> 00:58:34,319
immediately

1791
00:58:37,349 --> 00:58:35,920
if you stimulate the finger it would be

1792
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:37,359
a delay because it had to get to the

1793
00:58:39,270 --> 00:58:38,000
brain

1794
00:58:41,190 --> 00:58:39,280
well if you stimulate the finger there

1795
00:58:43,829 --> 00:58:41,200
is a delay but it's only 30 milliseconds

1796
00:58:45,829 --> 00:58:43,839
evoke potential so it's pretty fast but

1797
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:45,839
if you stimulate the brain directly

1798
00:58:49,190 --> 00:58:47,520
you need to have ongoing activity and it

1799
00:58:50,549 --> 00:58:49,200
takes about a half a second 500

1800
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:50,559
milliseconds

1801
00:58:54,549 --> 00:58:51,599
because you don't get the evoked

1802
00:58:56,150 --> 00:58:54,559
potential but if it continues for 500

1803
00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:56,160
milliseconds

1804
00:59:02,390 --> 00:59:00,160
this evoked potential

1805
00:59:04,309 --> 00:59:02,400
okay so if you stimulate the finger the

1806
00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:04,319
signal you get a spike that's the evoked

1807
00:59:07,030 --> 00:59:05,520
potential

1808
00:59:08,710 --> 00:59:07,040
if you stimulate it here you don't get

1809
00:59:10,150 --> 00:59:08,720
the evoked potential you just get

1810
00:59:13,670 --> 00:59:10,160
you know ongoing activity looks like

1811
00:59:15,829 --> 00:59:13,680
gamma but if you do it for half a second

1812
00:59:17,589 --> 00:59:15,839
the patient subject has the conscious

1813
00:59:18,069 --> 00:59:17,599
experience at the time of the evoked

1814
00:59:20,630 --> 00:59:18,079
potential

1815
00:59:22,470 --> 00:59:20,640
30 milliseconds so somehow at 30

1816
00:59:24,630 --> 00:59:22,480
milliseconds the brain

1817
00:59:26,710 --> 00:59:24,640
knows whether or not there's going to be

1818
00:59:27,829 --> 00:59:26,720
500 milliseconds of ongoing activity

1819
00:59:30,470 --> 00:59:27,839
afterwards

1820
00:59:31,030 --> 00:59:30,480
if there is he or she reports it at 30

1821
00:59:33,030 --> 00:59:31,040
milliseconds

1822
00:59:34,549 --> 00:59:33,040
that's interesting okay if there isn't

1823
00:59:36,789 --> 00:59:34,559
then he or she does

1824
00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:36,799
and so libbet concluded that there was a

1825
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:39,680
signal going backwards in time

1826
00:59:43,510 --> 00:59:41,839
from the time of the uh what he called

1827
00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:43,520
neuronal adequacy

1828
00:59:47,430 --> 00:59:45,119
and then send this information back

1829
00:59:48,870 --> 00:59:47,440
we're in time now roger wrote about this

1830
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:48,880
in emperor's neuron because

1831
00:59:51,990 --> 00:59:51,280
um that hap that can happen in quantum

1832
00:59:54,549 --> 00:59:52,000
physics

1833
00:59:57,589 --> 00:59:54,559
which is temporarily non-local is this

1834
00:59:59,670 --> 00:59:57,599
related to the subcutaneous rabbit

1835
01:00:01,990 --> 00:59:59,680
have you heard of that were you someone

1836
01:00:04,150 --> 01:00:02,000
yes but this is related to that yes

1837
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:04,160
and also the color five phenomenon where

1838
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:06,640
the color bounces back and forth and

1839
01:00:11,589 --> 01:00:09,839
it goes from uh red to blue and you go

1840
01:00:12,630 --> 01:00:11,599
red blue red blue and you can guess then

1841
01:00:14,470 --> 01:00:12,640
it goes red red

1842
01:00:15,990 --> 01:00:14,480
and you know you're not fooled and

1843
01:00:17,829 --> 01:00:16,000
that's because you seem to know what's

1844
01:00:20,069 --> 01:00:17,839
going on and the cutaneous rabbits the

1845
01:00:21,430 --> 01:00:20,079
the same thing i actually wrote a wrote

1846
01:00:22,150 --> 01:00:21,440
a chapter about i can send it to you

1847
01:00:28,630 --> 01:00:22,160
about

1848
01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:28,640
and all those can be accounted for

1849
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:31,280
by you somehow know know what's coming

1850
01:00:35,670 --> 01:00:32,720
and

1851
01:00:37,109 --> 01:00:35,680
this is very important because um if you

1852
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:37,119
and i are talking and you ask me a

1853
01:00:39,670 --> 01:00:37,680
question

1854
01:00:42,069 --> 01:00:39,680
and if someone were measuring the

1855
01:00:45,030 --> 01:00:42,079
activity in my brain

1856
01:00:47,349 --> 01:00:45,040
for what you said it'll happen and say

1857
01:00:49,589 --> 01:00:47,359
300 to 500 milliseconds after

1858
01:00:52,309 --> 01:00:49,599
they get to my ears but i will have

1859
01:00:54,630 --> 01:00:52,319
responded to you at 100 milliseconds

1860
01:00:55,990 --> 01:00:54,640
this is very very standard neuroscience

1861
01:00:58,349 --> 01:00:56,000
what neuroscience says

1862
01:00:59,829 --> 01:00:58,359
about that is that i respond

1863
01:01:01,910 --> 01:00:59,839
non-consciously

1864
01:01:03,910 --> 01:01:01,920
and have a false illusion of answering

1865
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:03,920
consciously after the fact

1866
01:01:10,150 --> 01:01:07,040
the consciousness is epi phenomenal my

1867
01:01:12,390 --> 01:01:10,160
cognitive autopilot non-conscious self

1868
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:12,400
answers you and then a little later my

1869
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:14,160
conscious self says oh i said that

1870
01:01:18,549 --> 01:01:16,720
you know i'm in control and it means

1871
01:01:21,190 --> 01:01:18,559
that consciousness is epi phenomenal

1872
01:01:21,750 --> 01:01:21,200
and illusion illusory that's what dennis

1873
01:01:23,910 --> 01:01:21,760
says

1874
01:01:25,750 --> 01:01:23,920
that's what all you know all the big of

1875
01:01:27,670 --> 01:01:25,760
the big name philosophers say

1876
01:01:28,870 --> 01:01:27,680
unless they have some way to to weasel

1877
01:01:30,870 --> 01:01:28,880
out of it

1878
01:01:32,390 --> 01:01:30,880
and but if you have backward time it

1879
01:01:34,549 --> 01:01:32,400
means that you can have

1880
01:01:37,430 --> 01:01:34,559
you can you can do all that and you can

1881
01:01:39,589 --> 01:01:37,440
still respond consciously in real time

1882
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:39,599
has dennett ever publicly commented

1883
01:01:43,510 --> 01:01:41,520
specifically on yours or penrose's

1884
01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:43,520
theories

1885
01:01:48,710 --> 01:01:47,040
no and he won't in fact uh i've argued

1886
01:01:50,630 --> 01:01:48,720
with him at several meetings and all he

1887
01:01:52,069 --> 01:01:50,640
does is yell at me without listening to

1888
01:01:55,430 --> 01:01:52,079
what i'm saying

1889
01:01:56,549 --> 01:01:55,440
and uh in fact what do you think that is

1890
01:01:57,910 --> 01:01:56,559
because he doesn't know anything about

1891
01:01:59,430 --> 01:01:57,920
the brain he doesn't know the damn thing

1892
01:02:01,430 --> 01:01:59,440
about the brain he admits it he doesn't

1893
01:02:02,870 --> 01:02:01,440
know a neuron from all the ground

1894
01:02:05,589 --> 01:02:02,880
and so all these you know he knows

1895
01:02:07,109 --> 01:02:05,599
computers and that's how computers work

1896
01:02:09,190 --> 01:02:07,119
and unfortunately that's true about

1897
01:02:12,309 --> 01:02:09,200
about a lot of a lot of people

1898
01:02:13,029 --> 01:02:12,319
so uh we actually uh my colleague tom

1899
01:02:14,549 --> 01:02:13,039
bever is

1900
01:02:17,029 --> 01:02:14,559
putting a course to get we're putting a

1901
01:02:19,589 --> 01:02:17,039
course together on conscious studies and

1902
01:02:21,349 --> 01:02:19,599
and tom asked dan dana whom he knows

1903
01:02:24,150 --> 01:02:21,359
some years ago if he would and he just

1904
01:02:24,870 --> 01:02:24,160
blew him off so he's not interested and

1905
01:02:26,150 --> 01:02:24,880
uh

1906
01:02:28,549 --> 01:02:26,160
you know they have their position they

1907
01:02:30,470 --> 01:02:28,559
don't want to be bothered with the facts

1908
01:02:31,750 --> 01:02:30,480
i've been arguing with dan for years and

1909
01:02:33,990 --> 01:02:31,760
uh

1910
01:02:37,510 --> 01:02:34,000
you can't argue with the guy you know

1911
01:02:40,390 --> 01:02:37,520
what do you disagree with penrose on

1912
01:02:42,150 --> 01:02:40,400
could be minor it could be metaphysical

1913
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:42,160
uh i'm not sure i agree but i

1914
01:02:45,190 --> 01:02:43,920
i would say that i uh i'm not saying i

1915
01:02:48,309 --> 01:02:45,200
disagree necessarily but i

1916
01:02:49,750 --> 01:02:48,319
i i tend to go further than he does in

1917
01:02:52,150 --> 01:02:49,760
certain things like

1918
01:02:53,029 --> 01:02:52,160
you know the spiritual implications of

1919
01:02:55,190 --> 01:02:53,039
of his whole

1920
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:55,200
platonic values and universal

1921
01:02:58,069 --> 01:02:56,400
consciousness

1922
01:02:59,750 --> 01:02:58,079
that he does he just doesn't he just

1923
01:03:01,510 --> 01:02:59,760
won't talk about it he says i don't find

1924
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:01,520
it useful to talk about

1925
01:03:06,150 --> 01:03:04,480
uh and uh the backward time effect he's

1926
01:03:07,510 --> 01:03:06,160
still a little bit reluctant to go as

1927
01:03:09,170 --> 01:03:07,520
far as i go

1928
01:03:11,589 --> 01:03:09,180
but um uh

1929
01:03:14,789 --> 01:03:11,599
[Music]

1930
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:14,799
stuff about anesthesia he's you know he

1931
01:03:17,829 --> 01:03:16,559
i think that once i've explained what

1932
01:03:19,990 --> 01:03:17,839
i'm trying to i kind of get ahead of

1933
01:03:21,430 --> 01:03:20,000
myself in saying things and then once i

1934
01:03:23,190 --> 01:03:21,440
i kind of backfill on what i was trying

1935
01:03:23,829 --> 01:03:23,200
to say he tends to go that's happened in

1936
01:03:27,910 --> 01:03:23,839
our recent

1937
01:03:29,829 --> 01:03:27,920
give you an example um

1938
01:03:32,150 --> 01:03:29,839
i we're talking about the hodgkin-huxley

1939
01:03:35,190 --> 01:03:32,160
neuron and you integrate and fire

1940
01:03:38,390 --> 01:03:35,200
and it's and um that is computable

1941
01:03:40,549 --> 01:03:38,400
when the threshold is met firing happens

1942
01:03:43,910 --> 01:03:40,559
but if you put electrodes and this was

1943
01:03:45,109 --> 01:03:43,920
done in 2006 by non-dorfdol in germany

1944
01:03:47,829 --> 01:03:45,119
they put electrodes in

1945
01:03:49,109 --> 01:03:47,839
in pyramidal cells of awake cats and

1946
01:03:52,710 --> 01:03:49,119
what they fi

1947
01:03:54,309 --> 01:03:52,720
conscious they find that there's a

1948
01:03:56,630 --> 01:03:54,319
tremendous variability

1949
01:03:58,390 --> 01:03:56,640
from from firing to firing so the

1950
01:04:00,630 --> 01:03:58,400
threshold is changing something

1951
01:04:02,549 --> 01:04:00,640
other than the membrane potential than

1952
01:04:05,029 --> 01:04:02,559
the input so something other

1953
01:04:06,549 --> 01:04:05,039
than the measurable inputs that are

1954
01:04:10,230 --> 01:04:06,559
triggering the firing which

1955
01:04:11,990 --> 01:04:10,240
controls behavior and uh uh

1956
01:04:13,510 --> 01:04:12,000
they that sounds groundbreaking because

1957
01:04:15,109 --> 01:04:13,520
usually it's thought of as

1958
01:04:16,870 --> 01:04:15,119
you just input a certain voltage

1959
01:04:19,990 --> 01:04:16,880
electric field and then it will

1960
01:04:21,750 --> 01:04:20,000
fire correct the synaptic inputs come in

1961
01:04:23,430 --> 01:04:21,760
they change the voltage on the membrane

1962
01:04:26,230 --> 01:04:23,440
of the dendrites in the soma

1963
01:04:27,510 --> 01:04:26,240
and when that uh accumulated integrated

1964
01:04:29,750 --> 01:04:27,520
membrane potential

1965
01:04:31,190 --> 01:04:29,760
gets to the exon initiation segment it's

1966
01:04:33,190 --> 01:04:31,200
compared to a threshold

1967
01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:33,200
and if the threshold is met firing

1968
01:04:37,029 --> 01:04:34,960
occurs that's the standard

1969
01:04:41,029 --> 01:04:37,039
hodgkin-huxley neuron

1970
01:04:43,430 --> 01:04:41,039
but in a neuron in an awake animal

1971
01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:43,440
that firing threshold is highly variable

1972
01:04:47,029 --> 01:04:45,440
there's some other factor

1973
01:04:49,109 --> 01:04:47,039
and so i started calling that a

1974
01:04:51,750 --> 01:04:49,119
non-computable factor

1975
01:04:52,150 --> 01:04:51,760
and uh roger uh didn't understand what i

1976
01:04:53,829 --> 01:04:52,160
was trying

1977
01:04:56,470 --> 01:04:53,839
you you say no non-computability has to

1978
01:04:58,549 --> 01:04:56,480
do something deep in quantum physics

1979
01:05:00,150 --> 01:04:58,559
and i was saying yes i i know and but it

1980
01:05:01,349 --> 01:05:00,160
has to come into the brain somewhere

1981
01:05:03,270 --> 01:05:01,359
and so that's where i thought it was

1982
01:05:04,710 --> 01:05:03,280
coming in so uh

1983
01:05:06,150 --> 01:05:04,720
he's come up he's come around to that

1984
01:05:06,470 --> 01:05:06,160
now and we're going to include that in

1985
01:05:11,430 --> 01:05:06,480
our

1986
01:05:15,190 --> 01:05:11,440
non-computability in neurons

1987
01:05:16,870 --> 01:05:15,200
and uh that's the d as a as a deviation

1988
01:05:20,230 --> 01:05:16,880
from hodgkin-huxley

1989
01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:20,240
uh behavior and uh which is also what i

1990
01:05:25,589 --> 01:05:22,400
was saying before deviation from

1991
01:05:27,670 --> 01:05:25,599
from cognitive uh autopilot function

1992
01:05:29,029 --> 01:05:27,680
because the hodgkin huxley behavior

1993
01:05:30,950 --> 01:05:29,039
would be fine for walking down the

1994
01:05:32,789 --> 01:05:30,960
street doing things that don't require

1995
01:05:35,029 --> 01:05:32,799
you know non-computable consciousness or

1996
01:05:37,670 --> 01:05:35,039
intuition insight

1997
01:05:38,549 --> 01:05:37,680
that platonic values uh values that sort

1998
01:05:40,630 --> 01:05:38,559
of thing

1999
01:05:41,670 --> 01:05:40,640
so um i think he's coming here he's

2000
01:05:44,069 --> 01:05:41,680
seeing

2001
01:05:45,910 --> 01:05:44,079
i'm trying to put his non-computability

2002
01:05:46,710 --> 01:05:45,920
into the brain specifically at the end

2003
01:05:48,870 --> 01:05:46,720
of integration

2004
01:05:50,549 --> 01:05:48,880
in pyramidal neurons where at the end of

2005
01:05:52,789 --> 01:05:50,559
this orchestrated period

2006
01:05:53,589 --> 01:05:52,799
and reduction and that can uh change the

2007
01:05:55,829 --> 01:05:53,599
firing

2008
01:05:56,870 --> 01:05:55,839
depending on your conscious thoughts so

2009
01:05:58,870 --> 01:05:56,880
rather than

2010
01:06:00,870 --> 01:05:58,880
responding reflexively to something or

2011
01:06:02,150 --> 01:06:00,880
somebody you think about it or you have

2012
01:06:04,789 --> 01:06:02,160
a conscious

2013
01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:04,799
uh thought or intuition or feeling well

2014
01:06:06,710 --> 01:06:05,920
i just lit a feeling i better do

2015
01:06:08,150 --> 01:06:06,720
something different

2016
01:06:10,150 --> 01:06:08,160
you know i don't want to do that i'm not

2017
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:10,160
sure why but so it's

2018
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:12,559
intuition it's inside its creativity

2019
01:06:14,789 --> 01:06:13,680
which are things comes out of this

2020
01:06:17,029 --> 01:06:14,799
non-computability

2021
01:06:18,870 --> 01:06:17,039
and i think it manifests in terms of

2022
01:06:20,309 --> 01:06:18,880
altering the firing capability of these

2023
01:06:22,309 --> 01:06:20,319
neurons

2024
01:06:24,150 --> 01:06:22,319
okay i'm going to take a look at some of

2025
01:06:27,190 --> 01:06:24,160
the questions that we have here

2026
01:06:28,630 --> 01:06:27,200
actually for now you know this podcast

2027
01:06:31,270 --> 01:06:28,640
or this series

2028
01:06:32,390 --> 01:06:31,280
has a tendency to get somewhat technical

2029
01:06:34,549 --> 01:06:32,400
so

2030
01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:34,559
i thought how about this time instead of

2031
01:06:38,630 --> 01:06:36,640
leaving it unexplained how about i

2032
01:06:39,990 --> 01:06:38,640
or you try to explain some of these

2033
01:06:42,309 --> 01:06:40,000
abstracts and

2034
01:06:44,309 --> 01:06:42,319
seemingly inscrutable terminologies and

2035
01:06:46,950 --> 01:06:44,319
then perhaps someone can understand

2036
01:06:48,069 --> 01:06:46,960
a full quote and maybe by understanding

2037
01:06:48,630 --> 01:06:48,079
the parts they can understand it as a

2038
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:48,640
whole

2039
01:06:55,750 --> 01:06:49,839
i'm basically taking quotes from your

2040
01:06:59,990 --> 01:06:58,150
okay how would microtubule quantum

2041
01:07:00,630 --> 01:07:00,000
computations which are isolated from the

2042
01:07:03,990 --> 01:07:00,640
environment

2043
01:07:06,549 --> 01:07:04,000
input and output

2044
01:07:07,349 --> 01:07:06,559
one possibility is that orc or suggests

2045
01:07:09,589 --> 01:07:07,359
that

2046
01:07:11,430 --> 01:07:09,599
perhaps phases of isolated quantum

2047
01:07:13,510 --> 01:07:11,440
computing alternate with phases of

2048
01:07:16,390 --> 01:07:13,520
classical environmental interaction

2049
01:07:17,829 --> 01:07:16,400
eg at gamma synchrony isolated from the

2050
01:07:18,470 --> 01:07:17,839
environment do you mind explaining that

2051
01:07:22,549 --> 01:07:18,480
concept

2052
01:07:23,589 --> 01:07:22,559
for people well uh for quantum devices

2053
01:07:26,150 --> 01:07:23,599
and technology

2054
01:07:27,430 --> 01:07:26,160
have to be isolated from interaction

2055
01:07:28,710 --> 01:07:27,440
with the environment which is thought to

2056
01:07:30,950 --> 01:07:28,720
be random

2057
01:07:32,390 --> 01:07:30,960
and noisy and to do that they do things

2058
01:07:33,829 --> 01:07:32,400
at absolute near absolute zero

2059
01:07:35,029 --> 01:07:33,839
temperature to avoid any thermal

2060
01:07:37,829 --> 01:07:35,039
oscillations

2061
01:07:40,069 --> 01:07:37,839
so in biology we think that inside the

2062
01:07:43,430 --> 01:07:40,079
tubulins

2063
01:07:45,589 --> 01:07:43,440
in the high resonance groups um

2064
01:07:47,349 --> 01:07:45,599
you have a uh yeah that's one you'll

2065
01:07:48,390 --> 01:07:47,359
have to explain to pi resonance so why

2066
01:07:51,510 --> 01:07:48,400
don't we go to that first

2067
01:07:54,710 --> 01:07:51,520
all right so let me back up so the basic

2068
01:07:57,670 --> 01:07:54,720
uh molecule in living systems

2069
01:07:58,390 --> 01:07:57,680
uh is the the organic ring the benzene

2070
01:08:02,150 --> 01:07:58,400
ring

2071
01:08:04,789 --> 01:08:02,160
carbons in a hexagon

2072
01:08:06,549 --> 01:08:04,799
and each carbon has in pure benzene each

2073
01:08:09,430 --> 01:08:06,559
carbon has one hydrogen

2074
01:08:10,630 --> 01:08:09,440
and that leaves two more bonds uh so one

2075
01:08:13,670 --> 01:08:10,640
bond goes to

2076
01:08:14,069 --> 01:08:13,680
uh three more bonds per for carbon one

2077
01:08:17,829 --> 01:08:14,079
go

2078
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:17,839
carbons and you have an extra electro

2079
01:08:21,110 --> 01:08:19,920
you have an extra bond so you have three

2080
01:08:23,590 --> 01:08:21,120
extra electrons

2081
01:08:25,829 --> 01:08:23,600
in a carbon ring so what do they do they

2082
01:08:27,749 --> 01:08:25,839
form these delocalized clouds above and

2083
01:08:31,030 --> 01:08:27,759
below the carbon ring

2084
01:08:33,990 --> 01:08:31,040
and this is a quantum area it's nonpolar

2085
01:08:35,829 --> 01:08:34,000
so there's no charge um but it's neutral

2086
01:08:37,349 --> 01:08:35,839
because the the positive charge is in

2087
01:08:39,349 --> 01:08:37,359
the is a nuclei

2088
01:08:41,669 --> 01:08:39,359
so you have this electron cloud above

2089
01:08:44,870 --> 01:08:41,679
and below and it's a quantum

2090
01:08:47,030 --> 01:08:44,880
entity it takes up space small space

2091
01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:47,040
volume and if you put two of these

2092
01:08:49,990 --> 01:08:48,159
together

2093
01:08:52,630 --> 01:08:50,000
the the electron cloud in one the

2094
01:08:54,229 --> 01:08:52,640
electro negativity will repel the

2095
01:08:56,709 --> 01:08:54,239
electrons over here

2096
01:08:58,149 --> 01:08:56,719
so you get a dipole and you get a an

2097
01:08:59,990 --> 01:08:58,159
induced dipole

2098
01:09:01,669 --> 01:09:00,000
and there's a dipole in this one and

2099
01:09:05,349 --> 01:09:01,679
there's a dipole in this one

2100
01:09:07,030 --> 01:09:05,359
and this one induces this one and then

2101
01:09:09,590 --> 01:09:07,040
this one induces back so you get an

2102
01:09:11,030 --> 01:09:09,600
oscillation of these dipoles

2103
01:09:12,630 --> 01:09:11,040
when you say oscillation in the dipole

2104
01:09:14,470 --> 01:09:12,640
you mean oscillation in the charge so

2105
01:09:16,229 --> 01:09:14,480
that it's more positive on one side than

2106
01:09:17,590 --> 01:09:16,239
the negative and it switches or what the

2107
01:09:20,470 --> 01:09:17,600
net charge is

2108
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:20,480
is is neutral but the dipole means

2109
01:09:24,149 --> 01:09:21,759
you're pushing

2110
01:09:26,390 --> 01:09:24,159
in in each cloud the electrons tend to

2111
01:09:27,749 --> 01:09:26,400
migrate to one side or the other

2112
01:09:29,030 --> 01:09:27,759
depending on what's near them so if

2113
01:09:29,990 --> 01:09:29,040
there's another cloud near them they're

2114
01:09:31,990 --> 01:09:30,000
both neutral

2115
01:09:33,349 --> 01:09:32,000
the electrons in one are going to repel

2116
01:09:34,789 --> 01:09:33,359
the other one so they tend to do this

2117
01:09:36,390 --> 01:09:34,799
they tend to oscillate

2118
01:09:37,829 --> 01:09:36,400
and that's just two of them now one of

2119
01:09:39,269 --> 01:09:37,839
them doesn't do that

2120
01:09:41,510 --> 01:09:39,279
and i should also say that if you get a

2121
01:09:42,950 --> 01:09:41,520
bunch of benzene and put them together

2122
01:09:44,550 --> 01:09:42,960
if they're not spaced properly they're

2123
01:09:47,349 --> 01:09:44,560
flammable that's gasoline

2124
01:09:49,110 --> 01:09:47,359
but if if you put them so they're spaced

2125
01:09:50,789 --> 01:09:49,120
in a geometric array

2126
01:09:52,390 --> 01:09:50,799
for example in a planar sheet that's

2127
01:09:53,669 --> 01:09:52,400
graphene and graphene has a lot of

2128
01:09:55,189 --> 01:09:53,679
quantum properties

2129
01:09:57,189 --> 01:09:55,199
but if you put them in a lattice where

2130
01:09:59,590 --> 01:09:57,199
there's space they can oscillate and

2131
01:10:01,990 --> 01:09:59,600
that's basically frolic coherence

2132
01:10:04,149 --> 01:10:02,000
so they're in a nonpolar region they're

2133
01:10:06,310 --> 01:10:04,159
isolated from the environment

2134
01:10:08,630 --> 01:10:06,320
but the question was okay let's say you

2135
01:10:11,030 --> 01:10:08,640
have that in this isolated environment

2136
01:10:12,870 --> 01:10:11,040
how do you communicate input and output

2137
01:10:15,830 --> 01:10:12,880
with the outside world

2138
01:10:16,950 --> 01:10:15,840
and uh that's a very good question and

2139
01:10:20,390 --> 01:10:16,960
our answer to that

2140
01:10:21,990 --> 01:10:20,400
came from a science fiction book by a

2141
01:10:24,470 --> 01:10:22,000
guy named paul benioff

2142
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:24,480
who was one of the inventors of quantum

2143
01:10:29,110 --> 01:10:26,000
computers

2144
01:10:32,790 --> 01:10:29,120
deutsche benioff and i forget who

2145
01:10:34,149 --> 01:10:32,800
uh feynman are generally uh

2146
01:10:36,149 --> 01:10:34,159
credited with you know inventing the

2147
01:10:39,590 --> 01:10:36,159
concept upon computers

2148
01:10:41,669 --> 01:10:39,600
and uh benioff uh was a roger knew

2149
01:10:42,950 --> 01:10:41,679
and actually spoke at our 2003 quantum

2150
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:42,960
mind conference

2151
01:10:46,470 --> 01:10:44,880
i had written a sci-fi book and he

2152
01:10:50,630 --> 01:10:46,480
talked about it in his talk

2153
01:10:52,470 --> 01:10:50,640
and he had a quantum computer robot and

2154
01:10:53,830 --> 01:10:52,480
it went through phases of quantum and

2155
01:10:55,910 --> 01:10:53,840
then collapsed to the

2156
01:10:56,950 --> 01:10:55,920
answer and that would communicate with

2157
01:10:59,750 --> 01:10:56,960
the environment

2158
01:11:00,229 --> 01:10:59,760
and during that phase you get inputs so

2159
01:11:03,189 --> 01:11:00,239
you get

2160
01:11:03,910 --> 01:11:03,199
output input then quantum again process

2161
01:11:06,229 --> 01:11:03,920
collapse

2162
01:11:07,910 --> 01:11:06,239
so the alternating phases of quantum and

2163
01:11:10,790 --> 01:11:07,920
classical quantum classical

2164
01:11:11,990 --> 01:11:10,800
and during the classical uh you'd have

2165
01:11:14,470 --> 01:11:12,000
interaction with the

2166
01:11:15,990 --> 01:11:14,480
both uh output and input now when we

2167
01:11:19,189 --> 01:11:16,000
said that for 40 hertz

2168
01:11:20,229 --> 01:11:19,199
uh i would change it now to say the same

2169
01:11:22,070 --> 01:11:20,239
thing happens

2170
01:11:23,510 --> 01:11:22,080
at say 10 megahertz because we think the

2171
01:11:24,550 --> 01:11:23,520
orca war events are happening much

2172
01:11:27,189 --> 01:11:24,560
faster

2173
01:11:28,149 --> 01:11:27,199
so uh after each event uh you're in the

2174
01:11:31,350 --> 01:11:28,159
classical phase

2175
01:11:33,030 --> 01:11:31,360
you you uh express the outputs and that

2176
01:11:33,910 --> 01:11:33,040
can trigger the neuron to fire or do

2177
01:11:35,669 --> 01:11:33,920
whatever

2178
01:11:37,590 --> 01:11:35,679
and receive inputs then you go back into

2179
01:11:39,669 --> 01:11:37,600
the quantum phase so you're alternating

2180
01:11:41,430 --> 01:11:39,679
between quantum and classical phases

2181
01:11:43,590 --> 01:11:41,440
roughly 10 million times a second

2182
01:11:45,270 --> 01:11:43,600
okay there's a hydrophobic property of

2183
01:11:47,350 --> 01:11:45,280
the benzene rings i believe

2184
01:11:49,350 --> 01:11:47,360
hydrophobic non-po nonpolar right

2185
01:11:51,189 --> 01:11:49,360
there's no charge so let's explain

2186
01:11:52,229 --> 01:11:51,199
those terms hydrophobic why is that

2187
01:11:53,510 --> 01:11:52,239
important and then non-polar they're

2188
01:11:54,790 --> 01:11:53,520
pretty much the same thing actually

2189
01:11:57,430 --> 01:11:54,800
hydrophobic means

2190
01:11:58,229 --> 01:11:57,440
water aversive so no water water is

2191
01:12:00,310 --> 01:11:58,239
polar

2192
01:12:02,229 --> 01:12:00,320
so basically think of it think of the

2193
01:12:03,910 --> 01:12:02,239
the brain or the body as a bunch of

2194
01:12:05,430 --> 01:12:03,920
different solubility compartments if

2195
01:12:07,669 --> 01:12:05,440
you're an anesthesiologist or

2196
01:12:08,630 --> 01:12:07,679
a pharmacologist or giving drugs to a

2197
01:12:11,430 --> 01:12:08,640
patient

2198
01:12:13,350 --> 01:12:11,440
you'd be you'd need to know uh where in

2199
01:12:15,669 --> 01:12:13,360
the body of the drug is going to go

2200
01:12:17,430 --> 01:12:15,679
and if it's polar if it's charged then

2201
01:12:19,990 --> 01:12:17,440
it's going to be very soluble in water

2202
01:12:22,149 --> 01:12:20,000
and blood and tend to go to charged

2203
01:12:22,790 --> 01:12:22,159
surfaces like receptors on the surfaces

2204
01:12:25,030 --> 01:12:22,800
of

2205
01:12:26,870 --> 01:12:25,040
neurons and so forth if however you're

2206
01:12:28,229 --> 01:12:26,880
giving a drug like an anesthetic which

2207
01:12:31,510 --> 01:12:28,239
is non-polar

2208
01:12:33,189 --> 01:12:31,520
which is lipid-like oil-like

2209
01:12:34,870 --> 01:12:33,199
it doesn't like to be in water it's very

2210
01:12:36,550 --> 01:12:34,880
insoluble so it traverses the blood

2211
01:12:39,669 --> 01:12:36,560
quickly and goes to fat

2212
01:12:42,390 --> 01:12:39,679
membranes and proteins that have these

2213
01:12:43,030 --> 01:12:42,400
non-polar regions inside of them and

2214
01:12:49,590 --> 01:12:43,040
that's where

2215
01:12:51,350 --> 01:12:49,600
and in the non-polar regions uh is where

2216
01:12:53,830 --> 01:12:51,360
the quantum stuff can happen

2217
01:12:54,950 --> 01:12:53,840
without being exposed to at least the

2218
01:12:57,270 --> 01:12:54,960
polar charges

2219
01:12:58,070 --> 01:12:57,280
so you've reduced the the degrees of

2220
01:13:00,630 --> 01:12:58,080
freedom

2221
01:13:02,149 --> 01:13:00,640
and created what uh is called in the

2222
01:13:05,350 --> 01:13:02,159
quantum computing business a

2223
01:13:07,270 --> 01:13:05,360
decoherence-free subspace temporarily

2224
01:13:08,790 --> 01:13:07,280
where you can do quantum stuff without

2225
01:13:09,830 --> 01:13:08,800
without getting messed up by the

2226
01:13:12,950 --> 01:13:09,840
environment by the

2227
01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:12,960
classical environment okay forgive me if

2228
01:13:17,189 --> 01:13:15,040
i'm misunderstanding this but there's a

2229
01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:17,199
the microtubule has three layers if i

2230
01:13:20,630 --> 01:13:18,640
remember correctly there's a water

2231
01:13:22,790 --> 01:13:20,640
tube inside and then there's the tubulin

2232
01:13:24,070 --> 01:13:22,800
on the outside i've only read about the

2233
01:13:24,310 --> 01:13:24,080
a lattice so i don't know much about the

2234
01:13:25,990 --> 01:13:24,320
b

2235
01:13:27,910 --> 01:13:26,000
lattice and then there's apparently

2236
01:13:30,950 --> 01:13:27,920
another layer i just saw

2237
01:13:32,390 --> 01:13:30,960
anarban right okay enervan

2238
01:13:33,430 --> 01:13:32,400
give a talk on this but i don't know

2239
01:13:35,430 --> 01:13:33,440
much about what's going on the outer

2240
01:13:37,110 --> 01:13:35,440
layer so is compu is quantum computation

2241
01:13:38,149 --> 01:13:37,120
happening on the layer with the tubulin

2242
01:13:40,470 --> 01:13:38,159
or is it inside

2243
01:13:43,030 --> 01:13:40,480
where the water is okay so when you say

2244
01:13:45,270 --> 01:13:43,040
inside so micro tubes are hollow tubes

2245
01:13:46,950 --> 01:13:45,280
so you have an outside which is this

2246
01:13:47,669 --> 01:13:46,960
charge is coming out and it's basically

2247
01:13:50,229 --> 01:13:47,679
water

2248
01:13:51,189 --> 01:13:50,239
around it then you have the wall of the

2249
01:13:54,790 --> 01:13:51,199
microtubule

2250
01:13:56,790 --> 01:13:54,800
which is about uh four nanometers thick

2251
01:13:58,390 --> 01:13:56,800
it can be very long but four ma and then

2252
01:14:01,830 --> 01:13:58,400
you have the inner core

2253
01:14:03,270 --> 01:14:01,840
which is 15 nanometers of again water

2254
01:14:05,830 --> 01:14:03,280
ordered water and then you have the

2255
01:14:08,790 --> 01:14:05,840
other wall so you have a house water

2256
01:14:10,550 --> 01:14:08,800
huh well the water in the water and eye

2257
01:14:12,950 --> 01:14:10,560
there's also ions

2258
01:14:14,470 --> 01:14:12,960
in in the interior of the microtubule

2259
01:14:16,630 --> 01:14:14,480
may be completely ordered

2260
01:14:17,510 --> 01:14:16,640
because you have charges coming out from

2261
01:14:21,590 --> 01:14:17,520
the in

2262
01:14:22,390 --> 01:14:21,600
then more ordered water more ordered

2263
01:14:23,990 --> 01:14:22,400
water and

2264
01:14:26,070 --> 01:14:24,000
the the water may become part of the

2265
01:14:30,070 --> 01:14:26,080
quantum state in that

2266
01:14:33,750 --> 01:14:30,080
uh that's okay that's another another uh

2267
01:14:37,350 --> 01:14:33,760
can of worms yeah yeah in fact uh i

2268
01:14:40,870 --> 01:14:37,360
co-authored a paper in 94.95 about

2269
01:14:43,750 --> 01:14:40,880
the uh about quantum states in the water

2270
01:14:44,550 --> 01:14:43,760
but in uh and that may be true but but

2271
01:14:46,870 --> 01:14:44,560
we think it's

2272
01:14:48,630 --> 01:14:46,880
originating in the nonpolar insi

2273
01:14:49,830 --> 01:14:48,640
nonpolarization inside the wall of the

2274
01:14:51,910 --> 01:14:49,840
microtubule

2275
01:14:53,350 --> 01:14:51,920
uh where it's sheltered from the water

2276
01:14:55,270 --> 01:14:53,360
either on the outside of the microtubule

2277
01:14:57,110 --> 01:14:55,280
on the inside of the microtubule

2278
01:14:58,790 --> 01:14:57,120
in the nonpolar regions which is exactly

2279
01:15:00,630 --> 01:14:58,800
where anesthetics go

2280
01:15:02,390 --> 01:15:00,640
and uh so we've coined this term the

2281
01:15:04,709 --> 01:15:02,400
quantum underground where anesthesia

2282
01:15:07,270 --> 01:15:04,719
goes the anesthetic nonpolar molecules

2283
01:15:08,470 --> 01:15:07,280
go and reside to block consciousness and

2284
01:15:09,990 --> 01:15:08,480
essentially affect

2285
01:15:11,750 --> 01:15:10,000
very little else the brain is still

2286
01:15:13,590 --> 01:15:11,760
active under anesthesia and all it's all

2287
01:15:15,350 --> 01:15:13,600
that's gone really is consciousness

2288
01:15:17,590 --> 01:15:15,360
when someone has alzheimer's it affects

2289
01:15:19,030 --> 01:15:17,600
the tau proteins correct

2290
01:15:21,750 --> 01:15:19,040
child proteins are microtubule

2291
01:15:24,149 --> 01:15:21,760
associated proteins and uh the top

2292
01:15:26,630 --> 01:15:24,159
proteins uh

2293
01:15:28,550 --> 01:15:26,640
basically microtubules disassemble and

2294
01:15:30,070 --> 01:15:28,560
become unstable that's i think that's a

2295
01:15:31,030 --> 01:15:30,080
big part problem with alzheimer's

2296
01:15:34,390 --> 01:15:31,040
disease

2297
01:15:35,990 --> 01:15:34,400
and the towel tau binding at specific

2298
01:15:39,030 --> 01:15:36,000
places on the microtubules

2299
01:15:41,030 --> 01:15:39,040
can encode memory and uh and when

2300
01:15:42,790 --> 01:15:41,040
the microtubules disassemble whether the

2301
01:15:44,229 --> 01:15:42,800
towel falls off first

2302
01:15:45,750 --> 01:15:44,239
and then that destabilizes the

2303
01:15:46,709 --> 01:15:45,760
microtubules or the microtubules

2304
01:15:48,310 --> 01:15:46,719
destabilize

2305
01:15:50,070 --> 01:15:48,320
and then the towel falls off you lose

2306
01:15:51,990 --> 01:15:50,080
the microtubules you lose synapses

2307
01:15:54,630 --> 01:15:52,000
because the microtubules make synapses

2308
01:15:55,669 --> 01:15:54,640
you lose the tau memory function on the

2309
01:15:58,790 --> 01:15:55,679
microtubules

2310
01:16:00,390 --> 01:15:58,800
so it's all bad and i've

2311
01:16:01,990 --> 01:16:00,400
been wanting to do a study using

2312
01:16:03,430 --> 01:16:02,000
ultrasound into the brain

2313
01:16:05,350 --> 01:16:03,440
which we think can re-polymerize

2314
01:16:07,430 --> 01:16:05,360
microtubules and we've been

2315
01:16:09,110 --> 01:16:07,440
we've been studying my ultrasound of the

2316
01:16:12,229 --> 01:16:09,120
brain for a while and showing that it

2317
01:16:15,189 --> 01:16:12,239
it can enhance mood and is safe

2318
01:16:17,030 --> 01:16:15,199
and we're gearing up to do a study on

2319
01:16:20,870 --> 01:16:17,040
alzheimer's and dementia

2320
01:16:21,590 --> 01:16:20,880
can you use this to form a treatment for

2321
01:16:23,189 --> 01:16:21,600
alzheimer's

2322
01:16:25,030 --> 01:16:23,199
that is let's say you hope sorry to the

2323
01:16:26,390 --> 01:16:25,040
stability of tau it helps

2324
01:16:28,070 --> 01:16:26,400
well it's the stability of the

2325
01:16:30,070 --> 01:16:28,080
microtubules i think uh

2326
01:16:31,910 --> 01:16:30,080
the tau is a microtubule associated

2327
01:16:33,669 --> 01:16:31,920
protein right everybody gets worked up

2328
01:16:34,070 --> 01:16:33,679
about tau they can measure talent spinal

2329
01:16:35,590 --> 01:16:34,080
fluid

2330
01:16:37,110 --> 01:16:35,600
they can do this but they're not they're

2331
01:16:38,870 --> 01:16:37,120
not thinking about what the tau

2332
01:16:40,790 --> 01:16:38,880
does when it's not messed up when it's

2333
01:16:41,590 --> 01:16:40,800
doing its you know it's functioning

2334
01:16:43,110 --> 01:16:41,600
properly

2335
01:16:44,709 --> 01:16:43,120
and what it is is a microtubule

2336
01:16:48,390 --> 01:16:44,719
associated protein

2337
01:16:51,110 --> 01:16:48,400
and and and sits on microtubule lattices

2338
01:16:51,590 --> 01:16:51,120
uh at specific locations which seems to

2339
01:17:02,550 --> 01:16:51,600
to

2340
01:17:03,830 --> 01:17:02,560
plays a role that's lost in alzheimer's

2341
01:17:05,590 --> 01:17:03,840
okay you mentioned that there's some

2342
01:17:07,110 --> 01:17:05,600
self-similar property of conductance at

2343
01:17:09,910 --> 01:17:07,120
the different levels of scales

2344
01:17:11,270 --> 01:17:09,920
now sorry i just copy this down i don't

2345
01:17:12,470 --> 01:17:11,280
know if this is an exact quote

2346
01:17:14,070 --> 01:17:12,480
what does that mean that there's

2347
01:17:15,510 --> 01:17:14,080
self-similar properties of conductance

2348
01:17:17,510 --> 01:17:15,520
at different levels

2349
01:17:19,030 --> 01:17:17,520
so honorable bonjour party whom you

2350
01:17:20,149 --> 01:17:19,040
mentioned several times who is a good

2351
01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:20,159
friend of mine

2352
01:17:23,590 --> 01:17:22,560
uh has done amazing work on microtubules

2353
01:17:27,430 --> 01:17:23,600
over the years going back

2354
01:17:29,030 --> 01:17:27,440
from 2009 he published in 2013 2014 and

2355
01:17:32,149 --> 01:17:29,040
then more recently

2356
01:17:35,830 --> 01:17:32,159
and basically he used yeah there you go

2357
01:17:37,590 --> 01:17:35,840
uh that image has gotten around a lot um

2358
01:17:39,030 --> 01:17:37,600
and basically for the audience in case

2359
01:17:40,310 --> 01:17:39,040
they can't see this

2360
01:17:41,510 --> 01:17:40,320
is one of the slides i was going to ask

2361
01:17:42,950 --> 01:17:41,520
you to explain at some point but we can

2362
01:17:45,990 --> 01:17:42,960
do that after

2363
01:17:47,510 --> 01:17:46,000
it's three low i haven't memorized

2364
01:17:50,950 --> 01:17:47,520
actually on the left you have

2365
01:17:52,630 --> 01:17:50,960
three levels of scale and then uh you

2366
01:17:54,709 --> 01:17:52,640
use different types of uh

2367
01:17:56,870 --> 01:17:54,719
uh nanopros scanning tunneling

2368
01:17:58,310 --> 01:17:56,880
microscopes atomic force electrodes this

2369
01:18:00,950 --> 01:17:58,320
and that and

2370
01:18:03,110 --> 01:18:00,960
uh so you're putting electrodes on a

2371
01:18:04,950 --> 01:18:03,120
microtubule now normally microtubule

2372
01:18:06,310 --> 01:18:04,960
all proteins are are insulators they

2373
01:18:08,550 --> 01:18:06,320
don't conduct very well

2374
01:18:10,390 --> 01:18:08,560
what honor bond did was he he put

2375
01:18:12,070 --> 01:18:10,400
electrodes and then he swept

2376
01:18:14,550 --> 01:18:12,080
and then he stimulated with alternating

2377
01:18:14,950 --> 01:18:14,560
current and he swept the current from

2378
01:18:17,750 --> 01:18:14,960
zero

2379
01:18:18,630 --> 01:18:17,760
up to i i forget how high terror

2380
01:18:22,229 --> 01:18:18,640
megahertz

2381
01:18:25,030 --> 01:18:22,239
oh okay you're right and he found at

2382
01:18:26,149 --> 01:18:25,040
certain frequencies that you would get

2383
01:18:27,590 --> 01:18:26,159
conducted

2384
01:18:29,189 --> 01:18:27,600
at certain critical frequencies

2385
01:18:31,189 --> 01:18:29,199
microtubules would be would conduct

2386
01:18:34,149 --> 01:18:31,199
would be would would have the

2387
01:18:35,590 --> 01:18:34,159
resonances or conductances in a triplet

2388
01:18:39,510 --> 01:18:35,600
of triplet patterns

2389
01:18:40,870 --> 01:18:39,520
repeated about every

2390
01:18:43,189 --> 01:18:40,880
not quite every three orders of

2391
01:18:44,149 --> 01:18:43,199
magnitude uh i see what you're saying i

2392
01:18:45,910 --> 01:18:44,159
see what you're saying

2393
01:18:47,110 --> 01:18:45,920
okay and so what is the significance of

2394
01:18:48,870 --> 01:18:47,120
it resonating what does that mean when

2395
01:18:49,750 --> 01:18:48,880
it resonates so you're sending it an ac

2396
01:18:52,390 --> 01:18:49,760
current

2397
01:18:53,910 --> 01:18:52,400
yeah okay now is that much like when you

2398
01:18:56,870 --> 01:18:53,920
put water in the microwave and the water

2399
01:19:01,669 --> 01:18:59,669
now i keep water out of this water water

2400
01:19:03,830 --> 01:19:01,679
is the enemy here there may be uh

2401
01:19:05,830 --> 01:19:03,840
because it's polar these electrodes are

2402
01:19:07,669 --> 01:19:05,840
attached directly to the microtubule

2403
01:19:09,110 --> 01:19:07,679
so i think the conductance is happening

2404
01:19:12,950 --> 01:19:09,120
through the the pi

2405
01:19:14,470 --> 01:19:12,960
resonance inside the uh and and

2406
01:19:16,630 --> 01:19:14,480
inside the wall of the microtubule in

2407
01:19:17,350 --> 01:19:16,640
this helical pathway uh he's measuring

2408
01:19:21,189 --> 01:19:17,360
conductance

2409
01:19:23,669 --> 01:19:21,199
i see yeah and the the uh and the at

2410
01:19:24,390 --> 01:19:23,679
certain frequencies the microtubules

2411
01:19:28,390 --> 01:19:24,400
conducted

2412
01:19:29,110 --> 01:19:28,400
the significance of this it's

2413
01:19:32,390 --> 01:19:29,120
interesting

2414
01:19:34,470 --> 01:19:32,400
geometrically visually but what is well

2415
01:19:36,470 --> 01:19:34,480
it's a it's he called it ballistic

2416
01:19:38,149 --> 01:19:36,480
conductance he couldn't prove quantum

2417
01:19:40,470 --> 01:19:38,159
because there's a classical interface

2418
01:19:42,149 --> 01:19:40,480
between the electron electrode and the

2419
01:19:44,310 --> 01:19:42,159
surface of the microtubule

2420
01:19:45,350 --> 01:19:44,320
but within the you know within the the

2421
01:19:46,470 --> 01:19:45,360
pi resonance

2422
01:19:47,830 --> 01:19:46,480
it was probably something like

2423
01:19:49,189 --> 01:19:47,840
superconductivity or some kind of

2424
01:19:50,709 --> 01:19:49,199
quantum state

2425
01:19:52,630 --> 01:19:50,719
frolic resident or something like that

2426
01:19:53,990 --> 01:19:52,640
so it's a quantum state at critical

2427
01:19:54,790 --> 01:19:54,000
resonance frequencies that

2428
01:19:56,870 --> 01:19:54,800
have something to do with the

2429
01:20:00,149 --> 01:19:56,880
vibrational frequencies of the

2430
01:20:05,030 --> 01:20:03,270
is there a way to use anesthesia to test

2431
01:20:06,470 --> 01:20:05,040
the consciousness of someone so for

2432
01:20:08,149 --> 01:20:06,480
example you mentioned there

2433
01:20:09,750 --> 01:20:08,159
are these buddhist monks who claim to

2434
01:20:11,750 --> 01:20:09,760
have a higher level of consciousness

2435
01:20:13,270 --> 01:20:11,760
so can you take someone who has a lower

2436
01:20:14,790 --> 01:20:13,280
level of consciousness give them a

2437
01:20:17,350 --> 01:20:14,800
certain amount of anesthesia

2438
01:20:18,229 --> 01:20:17,360
see how much does it take to put them

2439
01:20:20,310 --> 01:20:18,239
asleep

2440
01:20:21,830 --> 01:20:20,320
and then see if you need more to put

2441
01:20:22,550 --> 01:20:21,840
someone who claims to be higher in

2442
01:20:24,709 --> 01:20:22,560
consciousness

2443
01:20:25,669 --> 01:20:24,719
i don't think it's because i'm not sure

2444
01:20:27,990 --> 01:20:25,679
there'd be an effect

2445
01:20:29,910 --> 01:20:28,000
actually i don't think you know i don't

2446
01:20:32,790 --> 01:20:29,920
think a uh

2447
01:20:34,270 --> 01:20:32,800
well i don't know whether a a meditator

2448
01:20:36,390 --> 01:20:34,280
or a genius or some

2449
01:20:37,990 --> 01:20:36,400
extraordinary person requires any more

2450
01:20:39,750 --> 01:20:38,000
anesthesia than anybody else i i don't

2451
01:20:41,270 --> 01:20:39,760
know that it could be but

2452
01:20:43,669 --> 01:20:41,280
that would seem to be you know trying to

2453
01:20:45,030 --> 01:20:43,679
split hairs at a level where

2454
01:20:47,030 --> 01:20:45,040
you know i'm more interested in knowing

2455
01:20:49,350 --> 01:20:47,040
how anesthesia works on anybody or

2456
01:20:50,229 --> 01:20:49,360
an animal or an organoid or a mouse or

2457
01:20:52,070 --> 01:20:50,239
any human

2458
01:20:53,510 --> 01:20:52,080
and we still don't know that i mean

2459
01:20:54,149 --> 01:20:53,520
that's a very good question you asked

2460
01:20:55,750 --> 01:20:54,159
but

2461
01:20:57,110 --> 01:20:55,760
it's kind of like we're not there yet to

2462
01:20:57,830 --> 01:20:57,120
you now we want to know how it works on

2463
01:21:00,629 --> 01:20:57,840
anybody

2464
01:21:01,350 --> 01:21:00,639
much less you know uh the dalai lama or

2465
01:21:04,310 --> 01:21:01,360
something like that

2466
01:21:06,070 --> 01:21:04,320
what are frolic resonances frolic

2467
01:21:07,350 --> 01:21:06,080
coherences are fully resonant follow

2468
01:21:08,629 --> 01:21:07,360
coherences

2469
01:21:10,229 --> 01:21:08,639
what i talked about before where you

2470
01:21:11,430 --> 01:21:10,239
have these nonpolar dipoles that

2471
01:21:13,669 --> 01:21:11,440
oscillate

2472
01:21:14,870 --> 01:21:13,679
and they couple to the mechanical

2473
01:21:17,510 --> 01:21:14,880
vibration

2474
01:21:19,830 --> 01:21:17,520
also the key here is that everybody says

2475
01:21:23,110 --> 01:21:19,840
the brain is too warm wet and noisy for

2476
01:21:23,750 --> 01:21:23,120
for quantum effects so warm means it's

2477
01:21:27,030 --> 01:21:23,760
too hot

2478
01:21:29,590 --> 01:21:27,040
you have a

2479
01:21:31,189 --> 01:21:29,600
geometrical lattice with with mechanical

2480
01:21:32,870 --> 01:21:31,199
vibrational resonances

2481
01:21:34,310 --> 01:21:32,880
the heat's going to pump it so it's

2482
01:21:35,510 --> 01:21:34,320
going to have these oscillations that

2483
01:21:37,750 --> 01:21:35,520
are coherent

2484
01:21:38,950 --> 01:21:37,760
so you couple the quantum coherence the

2485
01:21:40,070 --> 01:21:38,960
mechanical parent

2486
01:21:43,030 --> 01:21:40,080
that's why you're saying it was like a

2487
01:21:45,669 --> 01:21:43,040
laser yes exactly

2488
01:21:47,350 --> 01:21:45,679
okay is computation happening at the

2489
01:21:49,030 --> 01:21:47,360
level of glial cells or is it just the

2490
01:21:51,590 --> 01:21:49,040
pyramidal neurons

2491
01:21:53,350 --> 01:21:51,600
good question uh glial cells have a lot

2492
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:53,360
of microtubules all cells have even

2493
01:22:00,149 --> 01:21:56,159
plant cells have microtubules

2494
01:22:03,830 --> 01:22:00,159
the the pyramidal cells uh

2495
01:22:07,350 --> 01:22:03,840
so what's different about microtubules

2496
01:22:09,590 --> 01:22:07,360
in in neurons in general is that okay

2497
01:22:10,550 --> 01:22:09,600
let me back up you know take any cell at

2498
01:22:14,390 --> 01:22:10,560
all

2499
01:22:15,830 --> 01:22:14,400
and uh uh an amoeba or or any cell

2500
01:22:17,750 --> 01:22:15,840
you can the microtubules are going to

2501
01:22:19,750 --> 01:22:17,760
radiate out from the central part of the

2502
01:22:21,110 --> 01:22:19,760
cell like spokes of a wheel

2503
01:22:23,189 --> 01:22:21,120
they're going to be continuous because

2504
01:22:24,550 --> 01:22:23,199
you want their structural support

2505
01:22:25,990 --> 01:22:24,560
and they're gonna they have the same

2506
01:22:26,870 --> 01:22:26,000
polarity they have a plus end and a

2507
01:22:31,189 --> 01:22:26,880
minus set

2508
01:22:34,070 --> 01:22:31,199
so they're all unipolar and radial

2509
01:22:36,070 --> 01:22:34,080
uh yeah but that's for pyramidal right

2510
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:36,080
yeah so pyramidal they're interrupted

2511
01:22:38,870 --> 01:22:37,440
and of mixed polarity so you have one

2512
01:22:42,310 --> 01:22:38,880
going here one going

2513
01:22:44,390 --> 01:22:42,320
going here and uh and um

2514
01:22:45,990 --> 01:22:44,400
if if you if you wanted them there for

2515
01:22:48,149 --> 01:22:46,000
structural support like the

2516
01:22:49,750 --> 01:22:48,159
skeleton of your body you wouldn't have

2517
01:22:53,030 --> 01:22:49,760
them broken and interrupted

2518
01:22:54,310 --> 01:22:53,040
okay and why would you have them mixed

2519
01:22:55,990 --> 01:22:54,320
polarity up and down

2520
01:22:58,470 --> 01:22:56,000
and that's been a big mystery and what

2521
01:23:00,950 --> 01:22:58,480
we what roger and i think is that

2522
01:23:02,629 --> 01:23:00,960
that if you have two microtubules in

2523
01:23:04,390 --> 01:23:02,639
mixed polarity next to each other and

2524
01:23:05,590 --> 01:23:04,400
they're in a common voltage

2525
01:23:07,430 --> 01:23:05,600
they're gonna have slightly different

2526
01:23:08,629 --> 01:23:07,440
frequency resonant frequencies and

2527
01:23:09,750 --> 01:23:08,639
that's going to give rise to beat

2528
01:23:11,270 --> 01:23:09,760
frequencies

2529
01:23:13,270 --> 01:23:11,280
so going back to what i said before

2530
01:23:15,189 --> 01:23:13,280
about you know eventually when i

2531
01:23:16,950 --> 01:23:15,199
and and what you said about repeating at

2532
01:23:19,430 --> 01:23:16,960
different frequency ranges

2533
01:23:21,669 --> 01:23:19,440
we want to get the cell similar patterns

2534
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:21,679
from the terahertz gigahertz megahertz

2535
01:23:26,149 --> 01:23:22,960
kilohertz

2536
01:23:28,870 --> 01:23:26,159
and hertz which is eeg so the eeg

2537
01:23:29,430 --> 01:23:28,880
may be kind of a a snapshot at a very

2538
01:23:32,830 --> 01:23:29,440
slow

2539
01:23:35,350 --> 01:23:32,840
low frequency of what's happening at

2540
01:23:36,550 --> 01:23:35,360
kilohertz uh megahertz gigahertz and

2541
01:23:38,709 --> 01:23:36,560
terahertz

2542
01:23:40,709 --> 01:23:38,719
so it's all kind of more like music than

2543
01:23:42,070 --> 01:23:40,719
computation is another way of putting it

2544
01:23:44,149 --> 01:23:42,080
when you have resonances and

2545
01:23:45,750 --> 01:23:44,159
and harmonics and interference beats

2546
01:23:50,550 --> 01:23:45,760
like in music

2547
01:23:53,990 --> 01:23:51,830
this is just for the people who are

2548
01:23:55,750 --> 01:23:54,000
watching all over yeah so what are these

2549
01:23:58,790 --> 01:23:55,760
frequencies indicating

2550
01:24:00,310 --> 01:23:58,800
is it that same energon yeah yeah that

2551
01:24:02,310 --> 01:24:00,320
goes along with that

2552
01:24:04,149 --> 01:24:02,320
yeah yeah and then i try to put it in a

2553
01:24:08,550 --> 01:24:04,159
schematic to show what's happening at

2554
01:24:12,709 --> 01:24:11,669
does this mean that potentially quantum

2555
01:24:15,750 --> 01:24:12,719
computers can be

2556
01:24:17,910 --> 01:24:15,760
conscious they would have to collapse by

2557
01:24:19,030 --> 01:24:17,920
roger's mechanism and right now quantum

2558
01:24:21,669 --> 01:24:19,040
computers

2559
01:24:22,950 --> 01:24:21,679
are built at uh near near absolute zero

2560
01:24:26,229 --> 01:24:22,960
and um

2561
01:24:27,270 --> 01:24:26,239
uh they collapse because somebody makes

2562
01:24:29,669 --> 01:24:27,280
a measurement which

2563
01:24:31,189 --> 01:24:29,679
this is randomness so it's presently

2564
01:24:34,390 --> 01:24:31,199
constituted no

2565
01:24:36,229 --> 01:24:34,400
however uh uh my friend hart mcnevin who

2566
01:24:39,750 --> 01:24:36,239
is the head of uh

2567
01:24:42,070 --> 01:24:39,760
google google's quantum ai

2568
01:24:43,189 --> 01:24:42,080
uh roger and i visited there uh a year

2569
01:24:46,229 --> 01:24:43,199
or so ago

2570
01:24:49,430 --> 01:24:46,239
and uh we were talking about this

2571
01:24:50,149 --> 01:24:49,440
and uh they they had uh discovered some

2572
01:24:51,430 --> 01:24:50,159
anomalies

2573
01:24:54,390 --> 01:24:51,440
in their quantum computing when it

2574
01:24:57,110 --> 01:24:54,400
seemed to be uh collapsing prematurely

2575
01:24:58,709 --> 01:24:57,120
and uh i had and hartman told me that i

2576
01:24:59,910 --> 01:24:58,719
said well are you sure your client care

2577
01:25:01,270 --> 01:24:59,920
is not conscious

2578
01:25:03,910 --> 01:25:01,280
you know it's having the roger's

2579
01:25:05,110 --> 01:25:03,920
objective reduction and he said oh my

2580
01:25:07,750 --> 01:25:05,120
god i hope not

2581
01:25:08,470 --> 01:25:07,760
because that would have created a public

2582
01:25:11,750 --> 01:25:08,480
relations

2583
01:25:12,870 --> 01:25:11,760
issue so this one of his people gave a

2584
01:25:14,550 --> 01:25:12,880
seminar and

2585
01:25:16,149 --> 01:25:14,560
showed you know tons and tons of

2586
01:25:18,229 --> 01:25:16,159
equations that i didn't understand

2587
01:25:19,270 --> 01:25:18,239
and concluded that no it wasn't

2588
01:25:21,350 --> 01:25:19,280
objective reduction

2589
01:25:22,310 --> 01:25:21,360
and their quantum computer wasn't

2590
01:25:24,310 --> 01:25:22,320
conscious

2591
01:25:26,149 --> 01:25:24,320
i'm not sure i understood but they at

2592
01:25:28,310 --> 01:25:26,159
least they at least thought about it

2593
01:25:29,189 --> 01:25:28,320
however i think it is possible to have a

2594
01:25:31,590 --> 01:25:29,199
conscious

2595
01:25:33,830 --> 01:25:31,600
quantum computer if you built it out of

2596
01:25:34,229 --> 01:25:33,840
something like uh graphene or fullerenes

2597
01:25:37,510 --> 01:25:34,239
that's

2598
01:25:39,350 --> 01:25:37,520
at warm temperature

2599
01:25:41,030 --> 01:25:39,360
and pumped it to get to get coherence

2600
01:25:43,030 --> 01:25:41,040
which would be basically building

2601
01:25:44,390 --> 01:25:43,040
something like a microtubule in an

2602
01:25:48,149 --> 01:25:44,400
artificial sense

2603
01:25:50,310 --> 01:25:48,159
i i you know that's it's not something i

2604
01:25:51,750 --> 01:25:50,320
want to do because i i'm not

2605
01:25:53,750 --> 01:25:51,760
technological but

2606
01:25:55,830 --> 01:25:53,760
i think it that is possible that may be

2607
01:25:57,510 --> 01:25:55,840
the future of

2608
01:25:58,709 --> 01:25:57,520
consciousness in you know in vitro if

2609
01:26:00,709 --> 01:25:58,719
you want to have a conscious computer

2610
01:26:02,870 --> 01:26:00,719
that'd be the way to do it

2611
01:26:04,629 --> 01:26:02,880
in the brain i believe it's topological

2612
01:26:08,310 --> 01:26:04,639
qubits

2613
01:26:13,910 --> 01:26:08,320
the topological yes so in the in the uh

2614
01:26:17,350 --> 01:26:15,669
cutting off just one second do you mind

2615
01:26:19,030 --> 01:26:17,360
repeating that because as far as i don't

2616
01:26:20,629 --> 01:26:19,040
think google is pursuing topological

2617
01:26:22,629 --> 01:26:20,639
qubits but i know microsoft is

2618
01:26:23,750 --> 01:26:22,639
so if anyone has a chance of producing a

2619
01:26:25,750 --> 01:26:23,760
conscious computer would

2620
01:26:27,750 --> 01:26:25,760
it would be them but i'm not sure if

2621
01:26:29,030 --> 01:26:27,760
topological qubits are required or if

2622
01:26:31,270 --> 01:26:29,040
it's just because

2623
01:26:33,110 --> 01:26:31,280
of the brain needing some area

2624
01:26:33,590 --> 01:26:33,120
correcting and topological qubits seem

2625
01:26:37,510 --> 01:26:33,600
to be

2626
01:26:39,669 --> 01:26:37,520
careful here because roger

2627
01:26:40,790 --> 01:26:39,679
this is where another uh where roger and

2628
01:26:42,149 --> 01:26:40,800
i don't don't agree

2629
01:26:44,149 --> 01:26:42,159
and i'm not sure it's because i'm not

2630
01:26:46,709 --> 01:26:44,159
explaining uh

2631
01:26:47,830 --> 01:26:46,719
i think properly or he's smarter than me

2632
01:26:51,510 --> 01:26:47,840
and knows i'm wrong

2633
01:26:54,950 --> 01:26:51,520
before i even get there uh but

2634
01:26:58,229 --> 01:26:54,960
what happened was uh this goes back to

2635
01:27:00,629 --> 01:26:58,239
the late 90s roger invited me to the uh

2636
01:27:02,229 --> 01:27:00,639
to the royal society meeting on uh on

2637
01:27:03,669 --> 01:27:02,239
quantum information which was

2638
01:27:05,990 --> 01:27:03,679
right when all the entanglement stuff

2639
01:27:06,950 --> 01:27:06,000
was coming out really exciting time we

2640
01:27:08,709 --> 01:27:06,960
had all these uh

2641
01:27:10,470 --> 01:27:08,719
super smart young physicists talking

2642
01:27:12,470 --> 01:27:10,480
about entanglement over

2643
01:27:14,550 --> 01:27:12,480
hundreds of miles and this and that and

2644
01:27:15,990 --> 01:27:14,560
um you know i mean the aspect experiment

2645
01:27:16,950 --> 01:27:16,000
proving entanglement didn't happen until

2646
01:27:19,430 --> 01:27:16,960
86.

2647
01:27:20,629 --> 01:27:19,440
so 10 10 or 12 years later you know a

2648
01:27:22,709 --> 01:27:20,639
lot of it happened and they were

2649
01:27:23,910 --> 01:27:22,719
talking about this technology and we had

2650
01:27:26,790 --> 01:27:23,920
a talk by uh

2651
01:27:27,590 --> 01:27:26,800
uh john preschool of caltech and he

2652
01:27:30,470 --> 01:27:27,600
showed a

2653
01:27:31,750 --> 01:27:30,480
a a lattice for a quantum computer which

2654
01:27:33,669 --> 01:27:31,760
was orthogonal

2655
01:27:35,189 --> 01:27:33,679
where he had the quantum computations

2656
01:27:37,669 --> 01:27:35,199
running in one direction

2657
01:27:40,149 --> 01:27:37,679
kind of up and down and he had the

2658
01:27:42,550 --> 01:27:40,159
quantum air correction running

2659
01:27:44,229 --> 01:27:42,560
sideways so they were intersecting and

2660
01:27:45,030 --> 01:27:44,239
the quantum merit correction would would

2661
01:27:47,430 --> 01:27:45,040
correct the

2662
01:27:49,030 --> 01:27:47,440
what was happening on on the vertical

2663
01:27:51,669 --> 01:27:49,040
and uh

2664
01:27:53,350 --> 01:27:51,679
i kind of woke up from from dozing

2665
01:27:56,790 --> 01:27:53,360
because i

2666
01:27:59,270 --> 01:27:56,800
they had lost me a hexagonal lattice

2667
01:28:01,350 --> 01:27:59,280
like thinking on microtubule

2668
01:28:02,709 --> 01:28:01,360
well sure why not where you have it

2669
01:28:03,910 --> 01:28:02,719
going this way so

2670
01:28:05,910 --> 01:28:03,920
on the coffee break i was talking with

2671
01:28:08,470 --> 01:28:05,920
roger about it and he said wouldn't it

2672
01:28:11,830 --> 01:28:08,480
be interesting if the fibonacci pathways

2673
01:28:14,870 --> 01:28:11,840
were some kind of topological qubit and

2674
01:28:15,350 --> 01:28:14,880
but for him topology means like you know

2675
01:28:21,030 --> 01:28:15,360
the

2676
01:28:23,590 --> 01:28:21,040
topology because of this and it has a

2677
01:28:26,229 --> 01:28:23,600
whole another meeting that that i wasn't

2678
01:28:27,030 --> 01:28:26,239
catching on to so uh i don't want to

2679
01:28:28,629 --> 01:28:27,040
talk about

2680
01:28:30,070 --> 01:28:28,639
so now i just call them helical

2681
01:28:32,310 --> 01:28:30,080
geometric pathways

2682
01:28:33,270 --> 01:28:32,320
but i think they could be topological in

2683
01:28:35,430 --> 01:28:33,280
a sense

2684
01:28:36,870 --> 01:28:35,440
and if you had them in a right because

2685
01:28:38,550 --> 01:28:36,880
in a microtubule if you have a

2686
01:28:40,470 --> 01:28:38,560
the helical pathway it's much more

2687
01:28:43,110 --> 01:28:40,480
stable from a quantum standpoint

2688
01:28:44,550 --> 01:28:43,120
because if for example one individual

2689
01:28:46,070 --> 01:28:44,560
tubulin gets out of whack it's going to

2690
01:28:47,030 --> 01:28:46,080
be pulled back into quantum coherence by

2691
01:28:48,629 --> 01:28:47,040
the others

2692
01:28:50,229 --> 01:28:48,639
so i think these helical geometric

2693
01:28:52,149 --> 01:28:50,239
pathways whether you call them

2694
01:28:54,470 --> 01:28:52,159
topological or not might be there might

2695
01:28:56,229 --> 01:28:54,480
be a way to go for quantum computing

2696
01:28:58,229 --> 01:28:56,239
in some kind of material it doesn't need

2697
01:28:59,750 --> 01:28:58,239
to be absolutely cold

2698
01:29:01,669 --> 01:28:59,760
is there something specific about the

2699
01:29:02,870 --> 01:29:01,679
lattice that's conducive to quantum

2700
01:29:05,430 --> 01:29:02,880
computing

2701
01:29:06,790 --> 01:29:05,440
or consciousness because i know that

2702
01:29:08,830 --> 01:29:06,800
penrose has done some work on the

2703
01:29:11,830 --> 01:29:08,840
tilings which are aperiodic which are

2704
01:29:13,590 --> 01:29:11,840
not tilings

2705
01:29:15,189 --> 01:29:13,600
well they're not periodic tilings i

2706
01:29:17,030 --> 01:29:15,199
don't know about the relationship

2707
01:29:18,470 --> 01:29:17,040
between periodic and aperiodic

2708
01:29:20,149 --> 01:29:18,480
i don't know if penrose was using those

2709
01:29:21,590 --> 01:29:20,159
tilings to demonstrate that well we can

2710
01:29:22,629 --> 01:29:21,600
do something that's non-computational

2711
01:29:23,910 --> 01:29:22,639
that was it or if it

2712
01:29:25,910 --> 01:29:23,920
has some other implication for

2713
01:29:27,910 --> 01:29:25,920
consciousness

2714
01:29:29,270 --> 01:29:27,920
good question i'm not sure actually i've

2715
01:29:31,350 --> 01:29:29,280
kind of asked him that myself

2716
01:29:33,030 --> 01:29:31,360
and and uh i get the feeling i'm not

2717
01:29:35,189 --> 01:29:33,040
even close to being able to

2718
01:29:36,950 --> 01:29:35,199
figure out what he's saying on that so i

2719
01:29:40,550 --> 01:29:36,960
can't really answer that

2720
01:29:42,550 --> 01:29:40,560
but the helical pathways i think

2721
01:29:45,270 --> 01:29:42,560
are very useful because they avoid

2722
01:29:47,189 --> 01:29:45,280
de-coherence and help us in other ways

2723
01:29:48,550 --> 01:29:47,199
why is it that iit says that

2724
01:29:49,990 --> 01:29:48,560
consciousness occurs at the back of the

2725
01:29:51,270 --> 01:29:50,000
brain but then the global neuronal

2726
01:29:53,990 --> 01:29:51,280
workspace theory says that

2727
01:29:54,790 --> 01:29:54,000
occurs at the front and where does your

2728
01:29:58,390 --> 01:29:54,800
theory

2729
01:30:02,229 --> 01:30:01,750
in pyramidal cells so the cortex has six

2730
01:30:04,229 --> 01:30:02,239
layers

2731
01:30:06,070 --> 01:30:04,239
the cortex covers well you know the

2732
01:30:09,189 --> 01:30:06,080
whole not the cerebellum but

2733
01:30:09,830 --> 01:30:09,199
everything else is on top and it's six

2734
01:30:13,590 --> 01:30:09,840
layers

2735
01:30:15,590 --> 01:30:13,600
and uh so when uh information comes in

2736
01:30:19,110 --> 01:30:15,600
it goes to layer

2737
01:30:19,990 --> 01:30:19,120
uh five well it winds up in layer five

2738
01:30:21,590 --> 01:30:20,000
it goes to four

2739
01:30:23,910 --> 01:30:21,600
and then from four goes one two three

2740
01:30:25,270 --> 01:30:23,920
and six and one two three and six

2741
01:30:26,950 --> 01:30:25,280
converge on layer five

2742
01:30:29,830 --> 01:30:26,960
and layer five is the pyramidal

2743
01:30:31,910 --> 01:30:29,840
pyramidal neurons they have these huge

2744
01:30:33,030 --> 01:30:31,920
cone-shaped cell bodies they call them

2745
01:30:34,870 --> 01:30:33,040
pyramids because

2746
01:30:36,390 --> 01:30:34,880
they look pure but actually they're

2747
01:30:38,470 --> 01:30:36,400
they're cone-shaped

2748
01:30:39,750 --> 01:30:38,480
and they're enormous compared to other

2749
01:30:42,790 --> 01:30:39,760
neurons

2750
01:30:45,430 --> 01:30:42,800
and they they have

2751
01:30:47,990 --> 01:30:45,440
the biggest array of mixed polarity

2752
01:30:50,790 --> 01:30:48,000
interrupted microtubules anywhere

2753
01:30:51,910 --> 01:30:50,800
and their basal or dendrites are

2754
01:30:54,950 --> 01:30:51,920
continuous and this

2755
01:30:56,870 --> 01:30:54,960
so they form one continuous sheet over

2756
01:31:00,149 --> 01:30:56,880
the whole cortex

2757
01:31:02,310 --> 01:31:00,159
and they are the and their outputs uh

2758
01:31:04,629 --> 01:31:02,320
illicit behavior and their apical

2759
01:31:07,030 --> 01:31:04,639
dendrites give rise to eeg

2760
01:31:08,070 --> 01:31:07,040
so i think consciousness can happen in

2761
01:31:11,590 --> 01:31:08,080
in

2762
01:31:13,110 --> 01:31:11,600
really if

2763
01:31:15,270 --> 01:31:13,120
but it may be proto-conscious if it

2764
01:31:18,310 --> 01:31:15,280
doesn't have information but the most

2765
01:31:19,830 --> 01:31:18,320
likely place in the brain would be among

2766
01:31:21,350 --> 01:31:19,840
the pyramidal neurons

2767
01:31:23,750 --> 01:31:21,360
of layer five throughout the whole

2768
01:31:25,430 --> 01:31:23,760
cortex with lateral connections

2769
01:31:27,110 --> 01:31:25,440
and i think consciousness can actually

2770
01:31:28,550 --> 01:31:27,120
move around within it

2771
01:31:30,709 --> 01:31:28,560
so if you're having an auditory

2772
01:31:32,709 --> 01:31:30,719
sensation it's an auditory cortex

2773
01:31:34,790 --> 01:31:32,719
visual it's in the visual cortex and

2774
01:31:37,830 --> 01:31:34,800
other other areas are related

2775
01:31:41,270 --> 01:31:37,840
prefrontal cortex i mean um

2776
01:31:41,830 --> 01:31:41,280
with with uh there the whole brain there

2777
01:31:43,189 --> 01:31:41,840
are three

2778
01:31:44,870 --> 01:31:43,199
you know it goes in three ways from

2779
01:31:46,390 --> 01:31:44,880
thalamus to primary cortex primary

2780
01:31:48,390 --> 01:31:46,400
cortex to the front of the brain

2781
01:31:50,149 --> 01:31:48,400
front of the brain elsewhere and it's

2782
01:31:51,270 --> 01:31:50,159
that third wave elsewhere

2783
01:31:52,790 --> 01:31:51,280
that seems to correlate with

2784
01:31:54,950 --> 01:31:52,800
consciousness because that's the only

2785
01:31:57,990 --> 01:31:54,960
way that's affected by anesthesia

2786
01:32:01,270 --> 01:31:58,000
now how about how that fits with gnw and

2787
01:32:03,830 --> 01:32:01,280
iit and uh

2788
01:32:05,910 --> 01:32:03,840
higher order theory and recursive

2789
01:32:08,550 --> 01:32:05,920
processing all the other theories

2790
01:32:09,590 --> 01:32:08,560
i'm not sure and i know that in the

2791
01:32:11,270 --> 01:32:09,600
templeton

2792
01:32:12,629 --> 01:32:11,280
program on accelerating research and

2793
01:32:15,189 --> 01:32:12,639
consciousness there's a

2794
01:32:16,149 --> 01:32:15,199
five million dollar study uh front of

2795
01:32:18,709 --> 01:32:16,159
the brain versus

2796
01:32:20,470 --> 01:32:18,719
back of the brain iit versus uh global

2797
01:32:22,390 --> 01:32:20,480
neuronal workspace

2798
01:32:24,149 --> 01:32:22,400
and i'm not sure what that's going to

2799
01:32:25,669 --> 01:32:24,159
prove actually because i think under

2800
01:32:27,270 --> 01:32:25,679
different circumstances consciousness

2801
01:32:28,629 --> 01:32:27,280
can be anywhere in the brain

2802
01:32:31,830 --> 01:32:28,639
but we'll find out we're part of that

2803
01:32:35,669 --> 01:32:31,840
program too but we're we're much more uh

2804
01:32:37,590 --> 01:32:35,679
uh focused on looking at effects of

2805
01:32:39,110 --> 01:32:37,600
anesthesia on quantum vibrations and

2806
01:32:41,510 --> 01:32:39,120
microtubules

2807
01:32:43,990 --> 01:32:41,520
and if we don't see that we're we'll

2808
01:32:45,189 --> 01:32:44,000
we'll be falsified so we're

2809
01:32:47,030 --> 01:32:45,199
we're putting their money where our

2810
01:32:50,070 --> 01:32:47,040
mouth is i'm not sure if this other

2811
01:32:52,550 --> 01:32:50,080
study will prove anything but we'll see

2812
01:32:53,189 --> 01:32:52,560
i actually i i've talked and read a lot

2813
01:32:58,709 --> 01:32:53,199
about

2814
01:33:01,350 --> 01:32:58,719
i don't really understand it i know it's

2815
01:33:02,950 --> 01:33:01,360
it's some measure of integration

2816
01:33:04,550 --> 01:33:02,960
but they say that it can happen at any

2817
01:33:05,830 --> 01:33:04,560
level so i asked christoph and julia

2818
01:33:07,990 --> 01:33:05,840
well what happens if

2819
01:33:09,750 --> 01:33:08,000
if you measure microtubules in uh if you

2820
01:33:11,669 --> 01:33:09,760
measure phi in microtubules

2821
01:33:12,790 --> 01:33:11,679
they said yeah it could be extremely

2822
01:33:13,669 --> 01:33:12,800
high there so that's well how do you

2823
01:33:15,110 --> 01:33:13,679
measure it

2824
01:33:16,310 --> 01:33:15,120
and they would they they couldn't say

2825
01:33:17,750 --> 01:33:16,320
how you would measure it i said what if

2826
01:33:18,870 --> 01:33:17,760
we get these quantum vibrations and

2827
01:33:21,990 --> 01:33:18,880
microtubules

2828
01:33:23,590 --> 01:33:22,000
could you apply and see if that that is

2829
01:33:25,110 --> 01:33:23,600
phi and they they wouldn't answer that

2830
01:33:27,750 --> 01:33:25,120
either so

2831
01:33:29,350 --> 01:33:27,760
uh i don't know actually and i think all

2832
01:33:30,870 --> 01:33:29,360
those other theories can be

2833
01:33:32,470 --> 01:33:30,880
more or less correct they're all at the

2834
01:33:34,629 --> 01:33:32,480
level of neurons although

2835
01:33:36,149 --> 01:33:34,639
ihds that can happen at any level but

2836
01:33:37,910 --> 01:33:36,159
they really focus on neurons

2837
01:33:39,830 --> 01:33:37,920
they could all be happening and then but

2838
01:33:40,390 --> 01:33:39,840
still need or happening at a deeper

2839
01:33:44,390 --> 01:33:40,400
level

2840
01:33:46,709 --> 01:33:44,400
so they're all basically uh

2841
01:33:47,750 --> 01:33:46,719
are cognitive architectures that may or

2842
01:33:49,110 --> 01:33:47,760
may not have anything to do with

2843
01:33:50,870 --> 01:33:49,120
consciousness

2844
01:33:52,229 --> 01:33:50,880
of course i'm yeah i'm skeptical i'm the

2845
01:33:53,990 --> 01:33:52,239
enemy according to them

2846
01:33:55,510 --> 01:33:54,000
and uh but i think that you need to go

2847
01:33:58,550 --> 01:33:55,520
to a deeper level into the quantum

2848
01:34:00,149 --> 01:33:58,560
economic realm do you feel like anyone

2849
01:34:02,310 --> 01:34:00,159
else has a scientific theory that

2850
01:34:03,990 --> 01:34:02,320
confronts the hard problem or something

2851
01:34:05,430 --> 01:34:04,000
that's posed as rigorous even

2852
01:34:07,910 --> 01:34:05,440
something slightly rigorous that could

2853
01:34:10,310 --> 01:34:07,920
be philosophical i think uh

2854
01:34:11,910 --> 01:34:10,320
i think our theory is head and shoulders

2855
01:34:13,350 --> 01:34:11,920
above any other theory in that regard in

2856
01:34:14,310 --> 01:34:13,360
terms of rigor or even approaching the

2857
01:34:16,629 --> 01:34:14,320
heart problem

2858
01:34:18,070 --> 01:34:16,639
i mean everybody else basically says

2859
01:34:19,510 --> 01:34:18,080
it's an emergent phenomenon at a

2860
01:34:22,790 --> 01:34:19,520
critical level of something

2861
01:34:24,709 --> 01:34:22,800
complexity some non-linear function that

2862
01:34:26,790 --> 01:34:24,719
has not yet been defined maybe it's five

2863
01:34:29,189 --> 01:34:26,800
but what is phi we don't really know

2864
01:34:30,870 --> 01:34:29,199
so i'm pretty i'm pretty uh dubious

2865
01:34:33,750 --> 01:34:30,880
about that i think uh

2866
01:34:34,470 --> 01:34:33,760
you know we're we're way farther out on

2867
01:34:36,470 --> 01:34:34,480
a limb

2868
01:34:37,510 --> 01:34:36,480
we're much easier to falsify than any

2869
01:34:39,030 --> 01:34:37,520
other theory

2870
01:34:40,310 --> 01:34:39,040
and that's both good and bad it's bad

2871
01:34:42,550 --> 01:34:40,320
because we could be falsified but it's

2872
01:34:44,070 --> 01:34:42,560
good that we have a specific theory

2873
01:34:45,910 --> 01:34:44,080
you know if it can't be falsified then

2874
01:34:47,830 --> 01:34:45,920
it's not a theory what are some ways of

2875
01:34:49,510 --> 01:34:47,840
falsifying it

2876
01:34:50,870 --> 01:34:49,520
well the what i just said we're we're in

2877
01:34:53,750 --> 01:34:50,880
this program now we're

2878
01:34:54,709 --> 01:34:53,760
starting experiments very soon uh so the

2879
01:34:58,870 --> 01:34:54,719
way they showed

2880
01:35:01,350 --> 01:34:58,880
quantum effects in photosynthesis

2881
01:35:03,109 --> 01:35:01,360
protein is take a this protein

2882
01:35:04,790 --> 01:35:03,119
and do what's called 2d electron

2883
01:35:07,270 --> 01:35:04,800
spectroscopy where you put

2884
01:35:08,229 --> 01:35:07,280
i think three laser beams in and get two

2885
01:35:11,590 --> 01:35:08,239
laser beams out

2886
01:35:13,910 --> 01:35:11,600
and if there's a or two emission two uh

2887
01:35:15,030 --> 01:35:13,920
emissions from it and if there's a

2888
01:35:17,990 --> 01:35:15,040
quantum superposition

2889
01:35:20,390 --> 01:35:18,000
in the protein then you get a sawtooth

2890
01:35:21,669 --> 01:35:20,400
interference a set of of interference

2891
01:35:23,270 --> 01:35:21,679
peaks coming out

2892
01:35:25,270 --> 01:35:23,280
and that is indicative that there's a

2893
01:35:27,189 --> 01:35:25,280
quantum superposition in the protein

2894
01:35:29,510 --> 01:35:27,199
so that was done with an fmo protein of

2895
01:35:31,109 --> 01:35:29,520
about 25 kilograms

2896
01:35:33,350 --> 01:35:31,119
and we'll be trying it at tubulin which

2897
01:35:36,950 --> 01:35:33,360
is 110 kilodollars 110

2898
01:35:42,149 --> 01:35:36,960
000. what's a kilodown kill adult

2899
01:35:44,790 --> 01:35:42,159
uh uh that's the united st

2900
01:35:45,910 --> 01:35:44,800
okay okay it's 110 the molecular the

2901
01:35:49,189 --> 01:35:45,920
molecular weight

2902
01:35:51,590 --> 01:35:49,199
is uh her atomic weight is 110 000. so

2903
01:35:53,109 --> 01:35:51,600
uh if you count up all the uh protons

2904
01:35:54,629 --> 01:35:53,119
and neutrons so it has i don't know how

2905
01:35:57,830 --> 01:35:54,639
many atoms out of that

2906
01:36:01,189 --> 01:35:57,840
but um uh

2907
01:36:02,550 --> 01:36:01,199
that's uh uh if the tubulin is four

2908
01:36:03,830 --> 01:36:02,560
times the size of the protein they

2909
01:36:04,870 --> 01:36:03,840
previously measured on is what i'm

2910
01:36:07,750 --> 01:36:04,880
trying to say

2911
01:36:09,590 --> 01:36:07,760
so it's it's a it's a step up and the

2912
01:36:10,550 --> 01:36:09,600
guy doing it is greg scholes who did

2913
01:36:12,229 --> 01:36:10,560
some of the original work in the

2914
01:36:12,870 --> 01:36:12,239
photosynthesis protein he's an expert in

2915
01:36:14,390 --> 01:36:12,880
this

2916
01:36:16,709 --> 01:36:14,400
so he thinks he can do it and there's

2917
01:36:18,709 --> 01:36:16,719
some tricks involved and if we see that

2918
01:36:20,070 --> 01:36:18,719
if we see that quantum interference at

2919
01:36:22,390 --> 01:36:20,080
room temperature

2920
01:36:23,990 --> 01:36:22,400
in a in a tubulin protein we'll then

2921
01:36:25,109 --> 01:36:24,000
attempt to anesthetize and see if it

2922
01:36:26,470 --> 01:36:25,119
goes away

2923
01:36:28,390 --> 01:36:26,480
proportional to the potency of the

2924
01:36:31,109 --> 01:36:28,400
anesthetic and we'd like to also give it

2925
01:36:32,709 --> 01:36:31,119
psychedelics and see if it increases ah

2926
01:36:33,030 --> 01:36:32,719
speaking of psychedelics you mentioned

2927
01:36:34,390 --> 01:36:33,040
that

2928
01:36:36,470 --> 01:36:34,400
well i'm not sure if it was you but

2929
01:36:39,109 --> 01:36:36,480
there's an indole group and they

2930
01:36:41,430 --> 01:36:39,119
interact with the benzene in some manner

2931
01:36:42,629 --> 01:36:41,440
uh an indole has a benzene and a

2932
01:36:45,030 --> 01:36:42,639
five-sided ring

2933
01:36:47,189 --> 01:36:45,040
combined it's a fuse it's fused so it's

2934
01:36:48,870 --> 01:36:47,199
found in tryptophan the amino acid

2935
01:36:51,109 --> 01:36:48,880
it's found in most of the psychedelics

2936
01:36:53,270 --> 01:36:51,119
you have this indoor ring

2937
01:36:55,189 --> 01:36:53,280
uh it's amazing actually the the the

2938
01:36:56,310 --> 01:36:55,199
neurotransmitters like serotonin and

2939
01:36:57,990 --> 01:36:56,320
dopamine

2940
01:36:59,430 --> 01:36:58,000
and the psychedelics all have these same

2941
01:37:02,149 --> 01:36:59,440
pi resonance groups that

2942
01:37:03,830 --> 01:37:02,159
that are conducive to quantum effects i

2943
01:37:05,350 --> 01:37:03,840
don't know if you've heard of this

2944
01:37:06,790 --> 01:37:05,360
thought i think you have because i think

2945
01:37:07,750 --> 01:37:06,800
i got it from you there's a thought

2946
01:37:09,189 --> 01:37:07,760
experiment by coke

2947
01:37:11,030 --> 01:37:09,199
called i don't know what to call it

2948
01:37:13,350 --> 01:37:11,040
other than binocular rivalry

2949
01:37:15,030 --> 01:37:13,360
and i'm not sure if it has implications

2950
01:37:16,390 --> 01:37:15,040
for your theory or implications for some

2951
01:37:17,189 --> 01:37:16,400
other theory but do you mind outlining

2952
01:37:19,430 --> 01:37:17,199
what that is

2953
01:37:20,709 --> 01:37:19,440
and then what your thoughts are on it

2954
01:37:23,750 --> 01:37:20,719
yeah well actually uh

2955
01:37:25,430 --> 01:37:23,760
it was done by nico slogathetis

2956
01:37:27,910 --> 01:37:25,440
where you present different images to

2957
01:37:30,870 --> 01:37:27,920
different to the two eyes

2958
01:37:32,550 --> 01:37:30,880
uh so one eye sings one scene one eyes

2959
01:37:34,550 --> 01:37:32,560
seeing the other thing

2960
01:37:35,669 --> 01:37:34,560
uh the other way to think of it is the

2961
01:37:37,430 --> 01:37:35,679
neck or cube

2962
01:37:39,189 --> 01:37:37,440
where you see in the foreground of the

2963
01:37:41,270 --> 01:37:39,199
background it shifts back and forth

2964
01:37:42,229 --> 01:37:41,280
or the the the vase and the face and

2965
01:37:44,310 --> 01:37:42,239
that sort of thing

2966
01:37:46,149 --> 01:37:44,320
there's two different perceptions but if

2967
01:37:48,149 --> 01:37:46,159
you if you put the two different things

2968
01:37:49,510 --> 01:37:48,159
you have a conscious perception of one

2969
01:37:51,510 --> 01:37:49,520
and then it switches to the other that

2970
01:37:54,790 --> 01:37:51,520
switches back and forth

2971
01:37:56,550 --> 01:37:54,800
and um uh i would say that you have a

2972
01:37:57,350 --> 01:37:56,560
superposition of both and it collapses

2973
01:37:59,270 --> 01:37:57,360
to one

2974
01:38:00,830 --> 01:37:59,280
and then it collapses to the other so i

2975
01:38:03,350 --> 01:38:00,840
have a you know that's that'd be our

2976
01:38:05,510 --> 01:38:03,360
explanation and my explanation for that

2977
01:38:07,270 --> 01:38:05,520
let's get to penrose and his explanation

2978
01:38:08,709 --> 01:38:07,280
as to how consciousness arises so

2979
01:38:10,470 --> 01:38:08,719
there's a superposition at a quantum

2980
01:38:12,470 --> 01:38:10,480
level and when it collapses

2981
01:38:14,629 --> 01:38:12,480
that is a small proto-consciousness

2982
01:38:15,189 --> 01:38:14,639
moment and somehow that consciousness

2983
01:38:17,830 --> 01:38:15,199
moment

2984
01:38:20,709 --> 01:38:17,840
is either influenced by or accesses

2985
01:38:23,590 --> 01:38:20,719
platonic forms

2986
01:38:25,030 --> 01:38:23,600
yes although yes uh well if it's

2987
01:38:26,629 --> 01:38:25,040
happening if it's proto-conscious

2988
01:38:28,709 --> 01:38:26,639
happening here there and everywhere

2989
01:38:30,149 --> 01:38:28,719
it's gonna have very little effect it's

2990
01:38:31,430 --> 01:38:30,159
gonna be

2991
01:38:33,350 --> 01:38:31,440
it's not going to be affected very much

2992
01:38:36,950 --> 01:38:33,360
by these platonic forms

2993
01:38:39,510 --> 01:38:36,960
which uh are kind of preferred states in

2994
01:38:40,870 --> 01:38:39,520
and uh in our in our paper roger came up

2995
01:38:41,910 --> 01:38:40,880
with the name of the equations that

2996
01:38:44,149 --> 01:38:41,920
actually govern this but i

2997
01:38:45,510 --> 01:38:44,159
i forget what they are at the moment um

2998
01:38:47,590 --> 01:38:45,520
but you need a you need a pretty

2999
01:38:49,430 --> 01:38:47,600
organized or orchestrated uh

3000
01:38:51,590 --> 01:38:49,440
superposition for that effect to be

3001
01:38:52,629 --> 01:38:51,600
significant yes that's the idea that

3002
01:38:54,229 --> 01:38:52,639
it's not random

3003
01:38:56,229 --> 01:38:54,239
like as it would be in measurement or

3004
01:38:56,950 --> 01:38:56,239
de-coherence but there's some influence

3005
01:38:59,990 --> 01:38:56,960
due to these

3006
01:39:02,950 --> 01:39:00,000
platonic testosterone preferred states

3007
01:39:04,390 --> 01:39:02,960
and therefore if you're mindful it'd be

3008
01:39:06,149 --> 01:39:04,400
like what we call intuition or

3009
01:39:09,590 --> 01:39:06,159
creativity or insight or

3010
01:39:12,390 --> 01:39:09,600
hunch or stroke of genius or

3011
01:39:14,310 --> 01:39:12,400
the way of the dao or divine guidance or

3012
01:39:16,550 --> 01:39:14,320
you know however you want to put it

3013
01:39:18,229 --> 01:39:16,560
speaking of stroke of genius the part of

3014
01:39:18,550 --> 01:39:18,239
your theory and penrose's theory that i

3015
01:39:20,870 --> 01:39:18,560
like

3016
01:39:21,669 --> 01:39:20,880
the most is not just the ingenuity of it

3017
01:39:23,189 --> 01:39:21,679
but the fa and

3018
01:39:25,030 --> 01:39:23,199
so for example you fold in multiple

3019
01:39:27,109 --> 01:39:25,040
mysteries like

3020
01:39:28,629 --> 01:39:27,119
how does one integrate quantum theory

3021
01:39:31,669 --> 01:39:28,639
with gravity and so on

3022
01:39:33,350 --> 01:39:31,679
but and by the way let me just

3023
01:39:34,229 --> 01:39:33,360
say we're criticized by i don't want to

3024
01:39:34,790 --> 01:39:34,239
interrupt your train of thought because

3025
01:39:35,990 --> 01:39:34,800
i want to hear

3026
01:39:37,910 --> 01:39:36,000
you you're going to ask me yeah it's a

3027
01:39:40,790 --> 01:39:37,920
compliment so

3028
01:39:41,109 --> 01:39:40,800
but but you know when you criticized uh

3029
01:39:44,070 --> 01:39:41,119
for

3030
01:39:45,430 --> 01:39:44,080
you know well people really chalmers has

3031
01:39:47,430 --> 01:39:45,440
ridiculed us and and

3032
01:39:49,109 --> 01:39:47,440
stephen pinker said well quantum theory

3033
01:39:51,030 --> 01:39:49,119
is one mystery consciousness

3034
01:39:52,629 --> 01:39:51,040
maybe they're the same mystery ha ha

3035
01:39:56,709 --> 01:39:52,639
well damn it maybe they are

3036
01:39:59,030 --> 01:39:56,719
and outcomes razor would suggest that

3037
01:40:00,470 --> 01:39:59,040
the minimization of mysteries is a good

3038
01:40:01,990 --> 01:40:00,480
thing i mean

3039
01:40:03,510 --> 01:40:02,000
dave chambers a good friend of mine

3040
01:40:04,870 --> 01:40:03,520
ridiculed us by saying oh they're just

3041
01:40:06,470 --> 01:40:04,880
invoking the mythical

3042
01:40:08,709 --> 01:40:06,480
minimization law of minimization of

3043
01:40:09,990 --> 01:40:08,719
mysteries but if you if you believe in

3044
01:40:12,629 --> 01:40:10,000
occam's razors

3045
01:40:14,229 --> 01:40:12,639
outcomes razor you know one explanation

3046
01:40:16,550 --> 01:40:14,239
for several mysteries is a good thing

3047
01:40:17,510 --> 01:40:16,560
and when i hear that i'm reminded of a

3048
01:40:18,950 --> 01:40:17,520
talk by tegmark

3049
01:40:20,709 --> 01:40:18,960
and you where you were both critiquing

3050
01:40:22,390 --> 01:40:20,719
one another and tegmark said hey

3051
01:40:23,510 --> 01:40:22,400
maybe consciousness is explained in the

3052
01:40:24,950 --> 01:40:23,520
same way that we thought there were

3053
01:40:26,629 --> 01:40:24,960
different laws for

3054
01:40:28,229 --> 01:40:26,639
billiard balls than the moon and it

3055
01:40:29,109 --> 01:40:28,239
turned out to be one law well you can

3056
01:40:30,870 --> 01:40:29,119
use that same

3057
01:40:32,310 --> 01:40:30,880
logic to suggest that quantum mechanics

3058
01:40:33,990 --> 01:40:32,320
has something to do with consciousness

3059
01:40:35,510 --> 01:40:34,000
in the same way

3060
01:40:37,590 --> 01:40:35,520
okay anyway what i like about your

3061
01:40:39,830 --> 01:40:37,600
theory yours and penrose is not just the

3062
01:40:41,189 --> 01:40:39,840
fact that it's creative and inventive

3063
01:40:43,030 --> 01:40:41,199
but

3064
01:40:44,390 --> 01:40:43,040
there's a gallantry there's an endurance

3065
01:40:45,510 --> 01:40:44,400
that you have to go against the

3066
01:40:48,830 --> 01:40:45,520
prevailing norms

3067
01:40:51,350 --> 01:40:48,840
and to take

3068
01:40:52,950 --> 01:40:51,360
criticism for years that you're a

3069
01:40:56,229 --> 01:40:52,960
crackpot and so on

3070
01:40:59,270 --> 01:40:56,239
and to me that

3071
01:41:01,430 --> 01:40:59,280
that's not easy that's

3072
01:41:02,709 --> 01:41:01,440
most people would consciously buckle or

3073
01:41:04,550 --> 01:41:02,719
unconsciously

3074
01:41:06,470 --> 01:41:04,560
so that is some i can't convey in words

3075
01:41:08,870 --> 01:41:06,480
how difficult that is

3076
01:41:10,470 --> 01:41:08,880
and that i actually find commendable

3077
01:41:13,270 --> 01:41:10,480
well thank you

3078
01:41:13,830 --> 01:41:13,280
thank you you know uh roger's just above

3079
01:41:16,950 --> 01:41:13,840
it all

3080
01:41:17,990 --> 01:41:16,960
and uh for my you know but although he's

3081
01:41:19,109 --> 01:41:18,000
sensitive and he doesn't like being

3082
01:41:20,709 --> 01:41:19,119
criticized but

3083
01:41:22,310 --> 01:41:20,719
but i think he's he's operating on a

3084
01:41:25,109 --> 01:41:22,320
higher level than

3085
01:41:26,790 --> 01:41:25,119
the rest of us so for him it's just well

3086
01:41:28,470 --> 01:41:26,800
they'll they'll figure it out eventually

3087
01:41:30,709 --> 01:41:28,480
my perspective about being criticized

3088
01:41:34,229 --> 01:41:30,719
and yeah it hurts um

3089
01:41:34,870 --> 01:41:34,239
but um you know i'm i i don't need

3090
01:41:38,149 --> 01:41:34,880
grants

3091
01:41:40,470 --> 01:41:38,159
fund my livelihood

3092
01:41:41,350 --> 01:41:40,480
so i don't need to follow somebody

3093
01:41:43,750 --> 01:41:41,360
else's idea

3094
01:41:44,709 --> 01:41:43,760
of what's important to put food on the

3095
01:41:46,310 --> 01:41:44,719
table

3096
01:41:48,470 --> 01:41:46,320
i you know i make my living as an

3097
01:41:50,390 --> 01:41:48,480
anesthesiologist i'm an academic so i i

3098
01:41:52,310 --> 01:41:50,400
do research and so forth

3099
01:41:54,229 --> 01:41:52,320
but my livelihood doesn't depend i

3100
01:41:56,550 --> 01:41:54,239
follow my nose i follow my intuition

3101
01:41:57,669 --> 01:41:56,560
it's it's more of a i hate to say it's a

3102
01:41:59,510 --> 01:41:57,679
hobby because that

3103
01:42:00,790 --> 01:41:59,520
sounds demeaning because it's very

3104
01:42:04,550 --> 01:42:00,800
important to me

3105
01:42:05,990 --> 01:42:04,560
um but why is it so important

3106
01:42:07,590 --> 01:42:06,000
it's the most interesting question in

3107
01:42:10,709 --> 01:42:07,600
the world i mean it's uh

3108
01:42:13,590 --> 01:42:10,719
it's it's it's what i do you know

3109
01:42:15,590 --> 01:42:13,600
if i were if my hobby were well i used

3110
01:42:17,430 --> 01:42:15,600
to ski a lot if it was skiing

3111
01:42:20,950 --> 01:42:17,440
it what i love that you just want to go

3112
01:42:23,430 --> 01:42:20,960
out and ski and it's what i enjoy doing

3113
01:42:25,430 --> 01:42:23,440
and you know it's fun and it's gotten me

3114
01:42:26,709 --> 01:42:25,440
to see the world i met people like roger

3115
01:42:29,109 --> 01:42:26,719
and you and

3116
01:42:31,109 --> 01:42:29,119
countless other people and been uh all

3117
01:42:34,229 --> 01:42:31,119
over the world you know before covid and

3118
01:42:35,590 --> 01:42:34,239
uh hopefully will again and uh you know

3119
01:42:36,790 --> 01:42:35,600
it keeps me going like you said i'm

3120
01:42:39,750 --> 01:42:36,800
pretty old but i'm still

3121
01:42:41,109 --> 01:42:39,760
highly motivated and and i never said

3122
01:42:43,109 --> 01:42:41,119
you're pretty old i said but i

3123
01:42:45,270 --> 01:42:43,119
well it's true i am pretty old but i'm

3124
01:42:47,990 --> 01:42:45,280
still uh i'm still doing anesthesia

3125
01:42:49,910 --> 01:42:48,000
although i'm cutting back on time and uh

3126
01:42:51,669 --> 01:42:49,920
but my research keeps me going you know

3127
01:42:53,510 --> 01:42:51,679
it's it's what i love to do among other

3128
01:42:54,870 --> 01:42:53,520
things

3129
01:42:56,629 --> 01:42:54,880
what does your theory have to say about

3130
01:42:58,310 --> 01:42:56,639
zero point consciousness or the view

3131
01:43:01,430 --> 01:42:58,320
from nowhere

3132
01:43:04,310 --> 01:43:01,440
oh yeah nothingness yeah

3133
01:43:05,830 --> 01:43:04,320
so if in medi if you meditate uh it's

3134
01:43:09,189 --> 01:43:05,840
just contentless conscious

3135
01:43:11,590 --> 01:43:09,199
whether it's contentless or not uh

3136
01:43:13,270 --> 01:43:11,600
is is debatable some people say well

3137
01:43:14,950 --> 01:43:13,280
nothingness is something

3138
01:43:16,470 --> 01:43:14,960
um but i think you could be highly

3139
01:43:18,950 --> 01:43:16,480
conscious of just uh

3140
01:43:20,629 --> 01:43:18,960
pure conscious consciousness with

3141
01:43:23,750 --> 01:43:20,639
feelings i think you know

3142
01:43:24,310 --> 01:43:23,760
our feelings content i i think you know

3143
01:43:26,390 --> 01:43:24,320
it depends

3144
01:43:27,830 --> 01:43:26,400
it's a semantic question so i think you

3145
01:43:29,910 --> 01:43:27,840
can be highly conscious without any

3146
01:43:32,070 --> 01:43:29,920
content and sometimes that's the best

3147
01:43:33,590 --> 01:43:32,080
the best types of the best type of

3148
01:43:34,629 --> 01:43:33,600
consciousness when you say it's the best

3149
01:43:36,229 --> 01:43:34,639
type do you mean that it comes with

3150
01:43:37,270 --> 01:43:36,239
euphoria or do you mean that somehow

3151
01:43:39,510 --> 01:43:37,280
it's aiding your

3152
01:43:41,109 --> 01:43:39,520
regular life when you come back to it

3153
01:43:42,550 --> 01:43:41,119
well it could be the latter but you know

3154
01:43:44,709 --> 01:43:42,560
at the time i'm just thinking it's just

3155
01:43:46,709 --> 01:43:44,719
peaceful and euphoric and

3156
01:43:49,189 --> 01:43:46,719
in pure existence and and very

3157
01:43:50,550 --> 01:43:49,199
gratifying you know

3158
01:43:53,030 --> 01:43:50,560
have you heard of wolfram's

3159
01:43:55,430 --> 01:43:53,040
computational theory

3160
01:43:57,350 --> 01:43:55,440
i know will from what which computation

3161
01:43:59,189 --> 01:43:57,360
no his physics theory that says that

3162
01:44:00,470 --> 01:43:59,199
perhaps at the bottom of our universe is

3163
01:44:02,709 --> 01:44:00,480
something like hypergraphs

3164
01:44:04,629 --> 01:44:02,719
and there's a rule that dictates the

3165
01:44:05,109 --> 01:44:04,639
update of the hypergraph and then that

3166
01:44:07,430 --> 01:44:05,119
can

3167
01:44:10,950 --> 01:44:07,440
lead to regularities that we interpret

3168
01:44:14,950 --> 01:44:12,870
it could be uh it sounds a little like

3169
01:44:16,950 --> 01:44:14,960
roger's idea but he wouldn't call it

3170
01:44:19,189 --> 01:44:16,960
computation i think you know the whole

3171
01:44:22,629 --> 01:44:19,199
idea of the brain is computers

3172
01:44:25,510 --> 01:44:22,639
the universe is a computer is maybe uh

3173
01:44:26,870 --> 01:44:25,520
its brain is more like an orchestra and

3174
01:44:28,310 --> 01:44:26,880
consciousness is more like music than a

3175
01:44:29,830 --> 01:44:28,320
computation

3176
01:44:31,669 --> 01:44:29,840
have you heard of bernardo castro's

3177
01:44:33,510 --> 01:44:31,679
theories of consciousness

3178
01:44:35,430 --> 01:44:33,520
a little bit yeah i know bernardo and

3179
01:44:36,950 --> 01:44:35,440
i've heard him speak and he's kind of an

3180
01:44:39,830 --> 01:44:36,960
idealist

3181
01:44:41,350 --> 01:44:39,840
and uh where consciousness is everything

3182
01:44:42,229 --> 01:44:41,360
and uh you know he has a rigorous

3183
01:44:45,350 --> 01:44:42,239
approach to it and i

3184
01:44:48,629 --> 01:44:45,360
and i respect that i just think that uh

3185
01:44:50,550 --> 01:44:48,639
you know matter is also real and

3186
01:44:52,870 --> 01:44:50,560
we kind of oscillate between a quantum

3187
01:44:55,189 --> 01:44:52,880
and a classical realm

3188
01:44:56,470 --> 01:44:55,199
at a high frequency so i don't think

3189
01:44:58,629 --> 01:44:56,480
it's quite right to say that

3190
01:45:00,470 --> 01:44:58,639
that consciousness is all there is i

3191
01:45:02,310 --> 01:45:00,480
think there's there's a real world out

3192
01:45:04,070 --> 01:45:02,320
there too a classical world what i was

3193
01:45:05,830 --> 01:45:04,080
wondering about your theory is how does

3194
01:45:08,550 --> 01:45:05,840
it solve the hard problem

3195
01:45:09,030 --> 01:45:08,560
when it seems like there's this material

3196
01:45:10,310 --> 01:45:09,040
base

3197
01:45:11,590 --> 01:45:10,320
and then there's a collapse and that

3198
01:45:13,510 --> 01:45:11,600
collapses consciousness but then i'm

3199
01:45:15,430 --> 01:45:13,520
wondering okay how is the collapse

3200
01:45:17,750 --> 01:45:15,440
consciousness because that's of a

3201
01:45:19,189 --> 01:45:17,760
different ontological category

3202
01:45:20,790 --> 01:45:19,199
so you're starting from material and

3203
01:45:22,629 --> 01:45:20,800
somehow you produce consciousness but it

3204
01:45:25,430 --> 01:45:22,639
still seems to me to lack an explanation

3205
01:45:26,629 --> 01:45:25,440
as to why consciousness arises

3206
01:45:28,550 --> 01:45:26,639
you have to you have to say that

3207
01:45:29,510 --> 01:45:28,560
experience is a fundamental component of

3208
01:45:30,790 --> 01:45:29,520
the universe

3209
01:45:33,030 --> 01:45:30,800
now a lot of people say that pan

3210
01:45:34,950 --> 01:45:33,040
cyclists pan cyclists say that

3211
01:45:36,390 --> 01:45:34,960
idealists say that ideally say that

3212
01:45:38,870 --> 01:45:36,400
that's all there is

3213
01:45:40,709 --> 01:45:38,880
uh pan psycho say would say i guess that

3214
01:45:43,189 --> 01:45:40,719
it's a property

3215
01:45:44,790 --> 01:45:43,199
of of matter that every atom has a

3216
01:45:47,830 --> 01:45:44,800
property or state

3217
01:45:50,870 --> 01:45:47,840
of of qualia of consciousness

3218
01:45:53,109 --> 01:45:50,880
and uh our approach is more

3219
01:45:55,669 --> 01:45:53,119
more of a process philosophy more along

3220
01:45:57,270 --> 01:45:55,679
the lines of alfred north whitehead

3221
01:45:59,189 --> 01:45:57,280
who said that consciousness is a

3222
01:46:00,950 --> 01:45:59,199
sequence of events

3223
01:46:02,390 --> 01:46:00,960
and doesn't even bring in matter you

3224
01:46:05,350 --> 01:46:02,400
know it's a sequence of events

3225
01:46:06,390 --> 01:46:05,360
of occasions of experience occurring in

3226
01:46:09,430 --> 01:46:06,400
a wider field

3227
01:46:13,189 --> 01:46:09,440
of of experience

3228
01:46:15,189 --> 01:46:13,199
and it was uh abner shimoni who

3229
01:46:16,629 --> 01:46:15,199
made the observation that whitehead's

3230
01:46:18,709 --> 01:46:16,639
occasions of experience are very much

3231
01:46:21,270 --> 01:46:18,719
like quantum state reductions

3232
01:46:21,750 --> 01:46:21,280
and whitehead was was aware of quantum

3233
01:46:23,990 --> 01:46:21,760
and didn't

3234
01:46:26,070 --> 01:46:24,000
and talked about a little bit but but

3235
01:46:28,229 --> 01:46:26,080
the idea is that consciousness is not

3236
01:46:29,510 --> 01:46:28,239
a property of matter but it's a it's an

3237
01:46:33,669 --> 01:46:29,520
event like a

3238
01:46:35,750 --> 01:46:33,679
photon is an event or um things are

3239
01:46:37,350 --> 01:46:35,760
events occurrences that that happen

3240
01:46:40,709 --> 01:46:37,360
rather than being states of matter

3241
01:46:42,709 --> 01:46:40,719
and what that does is the event cr

3242
01:46:44,310 --> 01:46:42,719
creates a particular state of matter so

3243
01:46:45,990 --> 01:46:44,320
if you have a superposition of

3244
01:46:47,350 --> 01:46:46,000
multiple possibilities and it collapses

3245
01:46:49,669 --> 01:46:47,360
to this

3246
01:46:51,109 --> 01:46:49,679
that's the state that's created and the

3247
01:46:54,149 --> 01:46:51,119
transition from going from

3248
01:46:55,030 --> 01:46:54,159
both to one emits i don't know if emit

3249
01:46:58,950 --> 01:46:55,040
is the proper

3250
01:46:59,910 --> 01:46:58,960
verb uh causes creates or is equivalent

3251
01:47:01,669 --> 01:46:59,920
to

3252
01:47:03,830 --> 01:47:01,679
a moment of conscious experience with

3253
01:47:06,830 --> 01:47:03,840
qualia you could say it's a quail it's

3254
01:47:09,270 --> 01:47:06,840
it's a quantum of

3255
01:47:12,070 --> 01:47:09,280
interesting what does your theory have

3256
01:47:13,669 --> 01:47:12,080
to say about free will

3257
01:47:15,590 --> 01:47:13,679
um well first of all you need the

3258
01:47:19,189 --> 01:47:15,600
backward time effect to be able to act

3259
01:47:21,189 --> 01:47:19,199
in real time uh it uh it doesn't address

3260
01:47:21,990 --> 01:47:21,199
determinism because even if you do act

3261
01:47:23,030 --> 01:47:22,000
in real time you still

3262
01:47:24,310 --> 01:47:23,040
have the problem well maybe it was

3263
01:47:25,510 --> 01:47:24,320
always going to be that way because of

3264
01:47:27,430 --> 01:47:25,520
everything else that

3265
01:47:28,950 --> 01:47:27,440
that's already happened but when you

3266
01:47:30,550 --> 01:47:28,960
bring in the backward time effects i

3267
01:47:32,870 --> 01:47:30,560
think that gives you the possibility

3268
01:47:34,070 --> 01:47:32,880
of free will but you're still you're

3269
01:47:38,070 --> 01:47:34,080
still governed by

3270
01:47:39,910 --> 01:47:38,080
you know the deterministic schroding

3271
01:47:43,030 --> 01:47:39,920
equation up to that point

3272
01:47:44,790 --> 01:47:43,040
and uh and uh you know maybe even the

3273
01:47:46,470 --> 01:47:44,800
platonic values so

3274
01:47:48,629 --> 01:47:46,480
you know the best they could say is that

3275
01:47:50,470 --> 01:47:48,639
the free will is the experience

3276
01:47:51,990 --> 01:47:50,480
of your volition being influenced by

3277
01:47:53,590 --> 01:47:52,000
platonic values

3278
01:47:55,350 --> 01:47:53,600
and actually i have a paper about that

3279
01:47:57,270 --> 01:47:55,360
called how quantum brain biology can

3280
01:47:59,030 --> 01:47:57,280
rescue conscious free will

3281
01:48:00,550 --> 01:47:59,040
but it deals with the backward time

3282
01:48:00,950 --> 01:48:00,560
effect rather than the other the other

3283
01:48:03,990 --> 01:48:00,960
issues

3284
01:48:07,910 --> 01:48:04,000
but is published already

3285
01:48:10,390 --> 01:48:07,920
in 2012 uh uh how quantum brain biology

3286
01:48:12,229 --> 01:48:10,400
can rescue conscious free will

3287
01:48:13,990 --> 01:48:12,239
and i think it's got more views than any

3288
01:48:16,149 --> 01:48:14,000
other paper i've written

3289
01:48:18,310 --> 01:48:16,159
it's in one of the frontiers journals

3290
01:48:20,390 --> 01:48:18,320
something like 50 000 views

3291
01:48:21,830 --> 01:48:20,400
i'll link it in the description okay now

3292
01:48:24,390 --> 01:48:21,840
this question i'm not sure if it's

3293
01:48:25,750 --> 01:48:24,400
better directed at penrose or to you and

3294
01:48:27,590 --> 01:48:25,760
i'm not sure who's the obverse

3295
01:48:28,870 --> 01:48:27,600
of the two but i'll for the sake of

3296
01:48:29,430 --> 01:48:28,880
flattering you'll pretend it i'll say

3297
01:48:32,629 --> 01:48:29,440
it's you

3298
01:48:34,709 --> 01:48:32,639
for this conversation there's a strong

3299
01:48:37,350 --> 01:48:34,719
anthropic principle and a weak one

3300
01:48:41,350 --> 01:48:37,360
now as far as i know actually i don't

3301
01:48:44,709 --> 01:48:43,510
well you can explain it i can't find it

3302
01:48:46,149 --> 01:48:44,719
right now

3303
01:48:47,510 --> 01:48:46,159
one has the causal arrow going in the

3304
01:48:49,669 --> 01:48:47,520
other direction yeah well basically the

3305
01:48:53,750 --> 01:48:49,679
anthropic principle is that uh

3306
01:48:55,669 --> 01:48:53,760
uh the if you look at the 20 or so

3307
01:48:57,590 --> 01:48:55,679
values of the parameters that govern the

3308
01:49:00,870 --> 01:48:57,600
universe the charge of this and the

3309
01:49:01,430 --> 01:49:00,880
the sep and uh uh all the things that

3310
01:49:02,870 --> 01:49:01,440
govern

3311
01:49:05,189 --> 01:49:02,880
at the microscope right right right

3312
01:49:08,149 --> 01:49:05,199
level okay if they weren't

3313
01:49:09,350 --> 01:49:08,159
exactly if all 22 i think weren't

3314
01:49:11,910 --> 01:49:09,360
exactly what they were

3315
01:49:13,589 --> 01:49:11,920
what they are we wouldn't have a

3316
01:49:15,510 --> 01:49:13,599
universe with with stars

3317
01:49:17,270 --> 01:49:15,520
light life and consciousness so they

3318
01:49:20,470 --> 01:49:17,280
have to be exactly

3319
01:49:23,589 --> 01:49:20,480
exactly how they are for us to be here

3320
01:49:26,629 --> 01:49:23,599
and one view is that it you know

3321
01:49:28,790 --> 01:49:26,639
uh god did it you know that there's a

3322
01:49:30,950 --> 01:49:28,800
prime mover and he created he or she

3323
01:49:32,629 --> 01:49:30,960
created the universe the way it is

3324
01:49:34,149 --> 01:49:32,639
and that i think that's the strong

3325
01:49:37,589 --> 01:49:34,159
anti-anatomic principle

3326
01:49:40,870 --> 01:49:37,599
i'm not sure uh the other view is that

3327
01:49:43,030 --> 01:49:40,880
um is that

3328
01:49:44,790 --> 01:49:43,040
it brings in multiple worlds and that

3329
01:49:48,550 --> 01:49:44,800
there's an infinite number of

3330
01:49:49,510 --> 01:49:48,560
worlds and that we happen to live in the

3331
01:49:52,310 --> 01:49:49,520
one world

3332
01:49:53,589 --> 01:49:52,320
the one and only world that has all the

3333
01:49:55,109 --> 01:49:53,599
parameters right that can have

3334
01:49:57,990 --> 01:49:55,119
consciousness

3335
01:49:59,350 --> 01:49:58,000
so that um uh all the other worlds they

3336
01:50:01,910 --> 01:49:59,360
don't have cut so

3337
01:50:03,910 --> 01:50:01,920
it it solves the problem of you know the

3338
01:50:05,430 --> 01:50:03,920
that we won the cosmic lottery by having

3339
01:50:07,750 --> 01:50:05,440
all these numbers being exactly

3340
01:50:08,790 --> 01:50:07,760
the way they are by saying well that's

3341
01:50:12,629 --> 01:50:08,800
that's only because

3342
01:50:14,790 --> 01:50:12,639
it's it's a uh it's a selector's bias

3343
01:50:15,990 --> 01:50:14,800
that you know we're asking the questions

3344
01:50:17,910 --> 01:50:16,000
because we're in the one and only

3345
01:50:21,350 --> 01:50:17,920
universe that has

3346
01:50:23,350 --> 01:50:21,360
the pro that has consciousness um

3347
01:50:24,870 --> 01:50:23,360
but then you have all these other worlds

3348
01:50:27,750 --> 01:50:24,880
what's the you know what's the point

3349
01:50:28,550 --> 01:50:27,760
um so i don't like that and then uh

3350
01:50:31,270 --> 01:50:28,560
chalmers

3351
01:50:32,550 --> 01:50:31,280
and uh kelvin mcqueen tried to to say

3352
01:50:34,870 --> 01:50:32,560
they have kind of a

3353
01:50:36,070 --> 01:50:34,880
copenhagen view of consciousness causes

3354
01:50:37,510 --> 01:50:36,080
collapse

3355
01:50:40,070 --> 01:50:37,520
and they were saying well consciousness

3356
01:50:41,350 --> 01:50:40,080
coming from another uh multiple worlds

3357
01:50:43,270 --> 01:50:41,360
i think they were saying that and i said

3358
01:50:45,430 --> 01:50:43,280
well that's the case to be coming from

3359
01:50:46,790 --> 01:50:45,440
a world with inferior inferior

3360
01:50:50,310 --> 01:50:46,800
consciousness because of

3361
01:50:53,350 --> 01:50:50,320
the end so they they drop that so

3362
01:50:56,550 --> 01:50:53,360
the explanation i like is

3363
01:50:57,910 --> 01:50:56,560
uh we actually talked about this in our

3364
01:50:59,589 --> 01:50:57,920
in our recent papers

3365
01:51:02,550 --> 01:50:59,599
you know roger has his whole own theory

3366
01:51:04,709 --> 01:51:02,560
about cyclical conformal cosmology

3367
01:51:06,709 --> 01:51:04,719
that the big bang was preceded by

3368
01:51:08,950 --> 01:51:06,719
another eon and that was preceded by

3369
01:51:11,350 --> 01:51:08,960
another eon and so forth

3370
01:51:12,070 --> 01:51:11,360
and uh i saw i said well why do you

3371
01:51:14,870 --> 01:51:12,080
think there was

3372
01:51:15,830 --> 01:51:14,880
uh consciousness in the previous eon he

3373
01:51:17,109 --> 01:51:15,840
said well sure

3374
01:51:18,870 --> 01:51:17,119
sure it could have been should have been

3375
01:51:21,510 --> 01:51:18,880
why not and uh

3376
01:51:22,629 --> 01:51:21,520
i then thought about a a book by uh lee

3377
01:51:25,830 --> 01:51:22,639
smolin

3378
01:51:29,589 --> 01:51:25,840
about called life of the cosmos and uh

3379
01:51:33,109 --> 01:51:29,599
he was talking about uh in a black hole

3380
01:51:35,350 --> 01:51:33,119
okay evolutionary model pardon me

3381
01:51:36,709 --> 01:51:35,360
an evolutionary model yeah that that

3382
01:51:39,430 --> 01:51:36,719
what comes down on the other side

3383
01:51:40,229 --> 01:51:39,440
is an improved version of what what went

3384
01:51:42,149 --> 01:51:40,239
in

3385
01:51:43,430 --> 01:51:42,159
so i said could that apply to your you

3386
01:51:46,870 --> 01:51:43,440
know big bangs and

3387
01:51:48,310 --> 01:51:46,880
in eons so that that uh every transition

3388
01:51:51,430 --> 01:51:48,320
from e on the e on

3389
01:51:53,350 --> 01:51:51,440
the parameters mutate or evolve

3390
01:51:54,709 --> 01:51:53,360
and so what comes out on the other side

3391
01:51:57,270 --> 01:51:54,719
is a slightly improved

3392
01:51:58,709 --> 01:51:57,280
or maybe dramatically improved version

3393
01:51:59,910 --> 01:51:58,719
of the parameters to support

3394
01:52:02,709 --> 01:51:59,920
consciousness

3395
01:52:04,709 --> 01:52:02,719
and that you know the universe is

3396
01:52:06,229 --> 01:52:04,719
evolving e on the eon to optimize

3397
01:52:08,470 --> 01:52:06,239
consciousness

3398
01:52:09,430 --> 01:52:08,480
so i was a little surprised he didn't

3399
01:52:11,350 --> 01:52:09,440
just say no

3400
01:52:13,189 --> 01:52:11,360
and said yeah it could be so we put that

3401
01:52:15,589 --> 01:52:13,199
in the that's in one of our recent

3402
01:52:17,990 --> 01:52:15,599
papers suggesting that

3403
01:52:19,350 --> 01:52:18,000
that consciousness is actually steering

3404
01:52:22,629 --> 01:52:19,360
the universe

3405
01:52:24,229 --> 01:52:22,639
um by these transition points uh big

3406
01:52:25,990 --> 01:52:24,239
bang transition points

3407
01:52:29,750 --> 01:52:26,000
and then e on the e on consciousness

3408
01:52:32,870 --> 01:52:31,350
instead of universes giving rise to one

3409
01:52:34,229 --> 01:52:32,880
where there are great conditions for

3410
01:52:36,550 --> 01:52:34,239
intelligence self-consciousness

3411
01:52:37,589 --> 01:52:36,560
that is the multiverse theory the weak

3412
01:52:39,109 --> 01:52:37,599
anthropic principle

3413
01:52:40,390 --> 01:52:39,119
you have consciousness is driving the

3414
01:52:42,390 --> 01:52:40,400
progression of the universe

3415
01:52:43,030 --> 01:52:42,400
evolutionarily as in penrose's cyclical

3416
01:52:44,629 --> 01:52:43,040
model

3417
01:52:46,629 --> 01:52:44,639
okay so then this to me implies that

3418
01:52:49,030 --> 01:52:46,639
there are better laws or more

3419
01:52:50,550 --> 01:52:49,040
adaptive physical constants so do you or

3420
01:52:52,709 --> 01:52:50,560
penrose make any predictions

3421
01:52:53,830 --> 01:52:52,719
as to what would be considered better

3422
01:52:55,189 --> 01:52:53,840
for consciousness

3423
01:52:57,430 --> 01:52:55,199
in terms of further tweaking these

3424
01:52:59,669 --> 01:52:57,440
fundamental constants

3425
01:53:00,790 --> 01:52:59,679
i can't tell you exactly you know what

3426
01:53:01,910 --> 01:53:00,800
would be what would improve

3427
01:53:05,270 --> 01:53:01,920
consciousness

3428
01:53:06,709 --> 01:53:05,280
uh but with all these 22 parameters

3429
01:53:09,750 --> 01:53:06,719
you know there must be some combination

3430
01:53:11,510 --> 01:53:09,760
that might optimize it in the sense that

3431
01:53:13,030 --> 01:53:11,520
how i don't know how but you know maybe

3432
01:53:15,109 --> 01:53:13,040
the platonic values are

3433
01:53:16,229 --> 01:53:15,119
evolving maybe the experience is getting

3434
01:53:19,270 --> 01:53:16,239
more fun

3435
01:53:20,390 --> 01:53:19,280
or feels better i don't know but

3436
01:53:21,669 --> 01:53:20,400
how would you you know if you want to

3437
01:53:23,270 --> 01:53:21,679
improve consciously well you know what

3438
01:53:24,550 --> 01:53:23,280
would be a way to improve it

3439
01:53:25,990 --> 01:53:24,560
outside of getting rid of people want to

3440
01:53:27,189 --> 01:53:26,000
kill other people and that sort of thing

3441
01:53:29,830 --> 01:53:27,199
but

3442
01:53:31,270 --> 01:53:29,840
you know just how would it get better

3443
01:53:33,589 --> 01:53:31,280
i'm not sure but i think

3444
01:53:35,189 --> 01:53:33,599
i think it's one possibility what else i

3445
01:53:35,510 --> 01:53:35,199
mean what what else would be the point

3446
01:53:40,790 --> 01:53:35,520
of

3447
01:53:42,790 --> 01:53:40,800
in other words i don't see consciousness

3448
01:53:43,510 --> 01:53:42,800
as kind of a of an afterthought i think

3449
01:53:46,790 --> 01:53:43,520
of it as more

3450
01:53:49,750 --> 01:53:48,229
at one point you mentioned that you can

3451
01:53:50,870 --> 01:53:49,760
vibrate literally vibrate the

3452
01:53:52,550 --> 01:53:50,880
microtubules to

3453
01:53:54,790 --> 01:53:52,560
treat cognitive disorders and that you

3454
01:53:56,629 --> 01:53:54,800
did this to yourself at some point

3455
01:53:59,589 --> 01:53:56,639
okay what were the results of that and

3456
01:54:01,510 --> 01:53:59,599
can this be done at home

3457
01:54:03,430 --> 01:54:01,520
i got to be careful here for and not

3458
01:54:06,310 --> 01:54:03,440
practice medicine over the internet but

3459
01:54:07,669 --> 01:54:06,320
but uh when uh when honor bond came out

3460
01:54:08,950 --> 01:54:07,679
with this idea that

3461
01:54:11,270 --> 01:54:08,960
or discovered that there were these

3462
01:54:15,030 --> 01:54:11,280
vibrations in microtubules

3463
01:54:16,470 --> 01:54:15,040
uh including in megahertz then um

3464
01:54:18,229 --> 01:54:16,480
[Music]

3465
01:54:19,830 --> 01:54:18,239
you know so he had terahertz gigahertz

3466
01:54:21,510 --> 01:54:19,840
megahertz kilohertz

3467
01:54:23,350 --> 01:54:21,520
so i said i wonder if there's a way to

3468
01:54:26,149 --> 01:54:23,360
treat the microtubule so

3469
01:54:27,430 --> 01:54:26,159
terahertz is is infrared and people

3470
01:54:28,870 --> 01:54:27,440
actually do try that but

3471
01:54:31,189 --> 01:54:28,880
it's kind of hard to get photons into

3472
01:54:32,470 --> 01:54:31,199
the brain gigahertz is

3473
01:54:33,910 --> 01:54:32,480
microwaves i wasn't interested in

3474
01:54:35,030 --> 01:54:33,920
putting microwaves in my brain although

3475
01:54:37,589 --> 01:54:35,040
that's that

3476
01:54:39,510 --> 01:54:37,599
apparently that uh that weapon that the

3477
01:54:41,990 --> 01:54:39,520
russians or the i forgot who used it

3478
01:54:43,910 --> 01:54:42,000
on our embassy people these loud pops

3479
01:54:47,270 --> 01:54:43,920
and apparently that was microwave

3480
01:54:49,510 --> 01:54:47,280
and so i wasn't interested in doing that

3481
01:54:50,950 --> 01:54:49,520
megahertz is in electromagnetics as

3482
01:54:52,709 --> 01:54:50,960
radio waves

3483
01:54:54,229 --> 01:54:52,719
wasn't interested in doing that but

3484
01:54:57,030 --> 01:54:54,239
megahertz in mechanical

3485
01:54:58,870 --> 01:54:57,040
is ultrasound and we use ultrasound and

3486
01:55:00,709 --> 01:54:58,880
anesthesia all the time

3487
01:55:01,910 --> 01:55:00,719
and so when i read this i looked over

3488
01:55:02,709 --> 01:55:01,920
and there's an ultrasound machine

3489
01:55:04,390 --> 01:55:02,719
sitting there

3490
01:55:05,990 --> 01:55:04,400
and i said i wonder if anybody's put

3491
01:55:08,070 --> 01:55:06,000
ultrasound into the brain

3492
01:55:09,990 --> 01:55:08,080
and ultrasound's been around forever and

3493
01:55:10,870 --> 01:55:10,000
it's mechanical vibrations megahertz

3494
01:55:12,709 --> 01:55:10,880
bounces off

3495
01:55:14,310 --> 01:55:12,719
echoes off surfaces so you get an image

3496
01:55:17,350 --> 01:55:14,320
inside the body you can see the

3497
01:55:17,990 --> 01:55:17,360
babies in the uterus and so forth and so

3498
01:55:24,550 --> 01:55:18,000
i

3499
01:55:26,149 --> 01:55:24,560
effects

3500
01:55:27,589 --> 01:55:26,159
and uh you know they could move their

3501
01:55:28,709 --> 01:55:27,599
paw you could get it you can make them

3502
01:55:31,430 --> 01:55:28,719
move their paw by

3503
01:55:32,870 --> 01:55:31,440
hitting the paw paw region and

3504
01:55:35,910 --> 01:55:32,880
physiological effects

3505
01:55:37,990 --> 01:55:35,920
and uh i wondered uh what would be the

3506
01:55:42,070 --> 01:55:38,000
effect on mental states

3507
01:55:44,229 --> 01:55:42,080
and uh um it ultrasound is approved for

3508
01:55:45,589 --> 01:55:44,239
have been approved for imaging the brain

3509
01:55:46,790 --> 01:55:45,599
so people in me getting ultrasound of

3510
01:55:48,950 --> 01:55:46,800
the brain but it wasn't very good

3511
01:55:50,229 --> 01:55:48,960
compared to you know mri and ct for

3512
01:55:51,350 --> 01:55:50,239
imaging the brain so it wasn't really

3513
01:55:53,430 --> 01:55:51,360
useful

3514
01:55:54,709 --> 01:55:53,440
so i said to my anesthesia colleagues

3515
01:55:56,070 --> 01:55:54,719
you know we have we have chronic pain

3516
01:55:56,950 --> 01:55:56,080
patients who are depressed in addition

3517
01:55:58,070 --> 01:55:56,960
to taking p

3518
01:55:59,990 --> 01:55:58,080
taking care of people in the operating

3519
01:56:01,589 --> 01:56:00,000
room for surgery we

3520
01:56:04,070 --> 01:56:01,599
see chronic pain patients do nerve

3521
01:56:05,510 --> 01:56:04,080
blocks and sort of thing and i'd i'd

3522
01:56:06,790 --> 01:56:05,520
done our i worked in our pain clinic a

3523
01:56:08,310 --> 01:56:06,800
while and i said you know they're all

3524
01:56:09,430 --> 01:56:08,320
depressed maybe we should put ultrasound

3525
01:56:11,669 --> 01:56:09,440
into their brain

3526
01:56:13,430 --> 01:56:11,679
and see if they feel better all over the

3527
01:56:15,189 --> 01:56:13,440
brain or in a specific region well i

3528
01:56:16,709 --> 01:56:15,199
didn't i didn't get that far

3529
01:56:18,790 --> 01:56:16,719
and that you know i hadn't really

3530
01:56:19,189 --> 01:56:18,800
thought about it and uh and my friend

3531
01:56:22,390 --> 01:56:19,199
said

3532
01:56:23,189 --> 01:56:22,400
okay you go first you know we don't try

3533
01:56:25,030 --> 01:56:23,199
to anybody

3534
01:56:27,109 --> 01:56:25,040
unless we try it on ourselves well you

3535
01:56:30,229 --> 01:56:27,119
have an easy head for it

3536
01:56:32,310 --> 01:56:30,239
yeah that's true i do and uh

3537
01:56:33,750 --> 01:56:32,320
but it was also my idea in fact that's

3538
01:56:34,950 --> 01:56:33,760
what he said that's what my friend said

3539
01:56:37,910 --> 01:56:34,960
he said you got a shaved head

3540
01:56:39,189 --> 01:56:37,920
your idea you go first and so it's the

3541
01:56:41,030 --> 01:56:39,199
end of the day we're sitting around

3542
01:56:42,310 --> 01:56:41,040
the table and i said okay what the heck

3543
01:56:42,629 --> 01:56:42,320
i thought about it and i really well

3544
01:56:44,310 --> 01:56:42,639
it's

3545
01:56:46,550 --> 01:56:44,320
approved for ultrasound brain imaging it

3546
01:56:48,070 --> 01:56:46,560
can't be that bad

3547
01:56:49,589 --> 01:56:48,080
how many seconds sorry it's interrupt

3548
01:56:51,030 --> 01:56:49,599
how many seconds does it take for the

3549
01:56:54,629 --> 01:56:51,040
imaging

3550
01:56:56,390 --> 01:56:54,639
immediately

3551
01:56:58,070 --> 01:56:56,400
okay so they don't leave prolonged

3552
01:56:58,629 --> 01:56:58,080
ultrasound on your brain at least not in

3553
01:57:01,830 --> 01:56:58,639
humans

3554
01:57:03,510 --> 01:57:01,840
that they've tested well i i

3555
01:57:05,750 --> 01:57:03,520
i'm not sure anybody used it for brain

3556
01:57:08,870 --> 01:57:05,760
imaging very much it was approved but

3557
01:57:10,550 --> 01:57:08,880
then ctm or i came came by came around

3558
01:57:12,229 --> 01:57:10,560
so i don't know if it was

3559
01:57:13,430 --> 01:57:12,239
there wasn't any guidelines i you know i

3560
01:57:14,229 --> 01:57:13,440
knew what they used in animals and that

3561
01:57:16,070 --> 01:57:14,239
sort of thing

3562
01:57:17,589 --> 01:57:16,080
anyway so they called my bluff my

3563
01:57:19,510 --> 01:57:17,599
friends call my bluff

3564
01:57:20,790 --> 01:57:19,520
and uh sit around the table and i picked

3565
01:57:23,109 --> 01:57:20,800
it up with my right hand

3566
01:57:24,629 --> 01:57:23,119
and uh you put this goo on it because

3567
01:57:26,550 --> 01:57:24,639
it's got to have gel

3568
01:57:28,390 --> 01:57:26,560
and being right-handed and knowing that

3569
01:57:29,750 --> 01:57:28,400
the temporal bone is the thinnest i put

3570
01:57:32,870 --> 01:57:29,760
it right here

3571
01:57:34,229 --> 01:57:32,880
turned on the machine saw would sort of

3572
01:57:37,030 --> 01:57:34,239
look like my brain on the

3573
01:57:38,229 --> 01:57:37,040
on the screen kept it there for about 15

3574
01:57:40,070 --> 01:57:38,239
seconds

3575
01:57:42,070 --> 01:57:40,080
put it down i didn't feel a thing i said

3576
01:57:43,830 --> 01:57:42,080
oh well that's disappointing

3577
01:57:45,510 --> 01:57:43,840
but about a minute later i did start to

3578
01:57:47,589 --> 01:57:45,520
feel anything to feel something and i

3579
01:57:50,390 --> 01:57:47,599
felt kind of a buzz i was like

3580
01:57:52,629 --> 01:57:50,400
really energized and invigorated and

3581
01:57:54,070 --> 01:57:52,639
felt really good for about an hour

3582
01:57:56,149 --> 01:57:54,080
and so i said you know what we should

3583
01:57:58,790 --> 01:57:56,159
try this so we did the first uh

3584
01:58:00,390 --> 01:57:58,800
study in 19 in 2012 it was actually

3585
01:58:01,430 --> 01:58:00,400
published in 2013 of chronic pain

3586
01:58:03,189 --> 01:58:01,440
patients

3587
01:58:05,109 --> 01:58:03,199
in the journal brain stimulation and

3588
01:58:06,550 --> 01:58:05,119
showed improved mood and reduced pain

3589
01:58:09,669 --> 01:58:06,560
and chronic pain patients

3590
01:58:12,229 --> 01:58:09,679
with 15 seconds of ultrasound to uh

3591
01:58:13,350 --> 01:58:12,239
contralateral to the pain in pain

3592
01:58:14,950 --> 01:58:13,360
chronic pain patients

3593
01:58:16,229 --> 01:58:14,960
in a double blind crossover study you

3594
01:58:17,510 --> 01:58:16,239
don't feel it so it's easy to do a

3595
01:58:19,350 --> 01:58:17,520
double blind study

3596
01:58:20,870 --> 01:58:19,360
now since then a number of other people

3597
01:58:22,310 --> 01:58:20,880
did it and we we did a study about a

3598
01:58:25,109 --> 01:58:22,320
year ago

3599
01:58:26,229 --> 01:58:25,119
uh with much better studies showed

3600
01:58:28,470 --> 01:58:26,239
improved mood and

3601
01:58:29,270 --> 01:58:28,480
changing mri connectivity so it actually

3602
01:58:34,629 --> 01:58:29,280
does

3603
01:58:37,510 --> 01:58:34,639
the brain

3604
01:58:38,390 --> 01:58:37,520
did you ever try it again i've tried it

3605
01:58:41,830 --> 01:58:38,400
a couple times

3606
01:58:43,430 --> 01:58:41,840
uh but nothing again not that you didn't

3607
01:58:46,870 --> 01:58:43,440
get that one hour of buzz

3608
01:58:49,030 --> 01:58:46,880
yeah i did but i didn't yeah but

3609
01:58:50,790 --> 01:58:49,040
have you tried it for creativity what's

3610
01:58:51,669 --> 01:58:50,800
that have you tried it to increase

3611
01:58:54,070 --> 01:58:51,679
creativity or

3612
01:58:55,270 --> 01:58:54,080
productivity i i don't i don't i don't

3613
01:58:57,109 --> 01:58:55,280
want to mess with it it's something

3614
01:58:59,109 --> 01:58:57,119
at work you know i i don't have one at

3615
01:59:01,270 --> 01:58:59,119
home it's not

3616
01:59:03,270 --> 01:59:01,280
something i'm really into to trying but

3617
01:59:05,270 --> 01:59:03,280
i think if i had alzheimer's or

3618
01:59:07,830 --> 01:59:05,280
or something like that i damn well try

3619
01:59:08,790 --> 01:59:07,840
it okay let me get off on a hypothetical

3620
01:59:10,310 --> 01:59:08,800
plunge here

3621
01:59:12,550 --> 01:59:10,320
some people suggest that the universe as

3622
01:59:14,629 --> 01:59:12,560
a whole is conscious now i assume you

3623
01:59:15,750 --> 01:59:14,639
suggest that to some minor degree

3624
01:59:17,270 --> 01:59:15,760
proto-consciousness more like a

3625
01:59:18,870 --> 01:59:17,280
cacophony than a symphony because you

3626
01:59:20,950 --> 01:59:18,880
need to cohere it in some manner

3627
01:59:22,790 --> 01:59:20,960
okay but then consciousness is

3628
01:59:25,910 --> 01:59:22,800
associated with

3629
01:59:28,070 --> 01:59:25,920
40 hertz 10 hertz it could be at any

3630
01:59:31,030 --> 01:59:28,080
frequency

3631
01:59:33,030 --> 01:59:31,040
okay where i was going with this was you

3632
01:59:36,709 --> 01:59:33,040
can look at the universe as a whole

3633
01:59:39,109 --> 01:59:36,719
through astrological data

3634
01:59:39,750 --> 01:59:39,119
and in cosmological data and i'm

3635
01:59:42,149 --> 01:59:39,760
wondering

3636
01:59:43,430 --> 01:59:42,159
is there a way of seeing if the universe

3637
01:59:44,870 --> 01:59:43,440
is vibrating

3638
01:59:47,510 --> 01:59:44,880
and then let's imagine it's not

3639
01:59:49,270 --> 01:59:47,520
vibrating at some level

3640
01:59:51,189 --> 01:59:49,280
then does that mean that as far as we

3641
01:59:54,390 --> 01:59:51,199
can tell we are the most

3642
01:59:55,669 --> 01:59:54,400
conscious parts of the universe well it

3643
01:59:56,870 --> 01:59:55,679
may be vibrating questions whether it's

3644
01:59:59,350 --> 01:59:56,880
vibrating coherently

3645
02:00:00,070 --> 01:59:59,360
you know or is everything connected and

3646
02:00:01,109 --> 02:00:00,080
uh

3647
02:00:02,790 --> 02:00:01,119
some people would say yes and

3648
02:00:03,990 --> 02:00:02,800
everything's entangled you know going

3649
02:00:05,189 --> 02:00:04,000
back to the big bang everything's

3650
02:00:07,030 --> 02:00:05,199
entangled

3651
02:00:09,270 --> 02:00:07,040
you're kind of asking me whether you

3652
02:00:12,390 --> 02:00:09,280
know whether there's god out there

3653
02:00:13,830 --> 02:00:12,400
in terms of this and i think there might

3654
02:00:15,270 --> 02:00:13,840
be but i'm not gonna

3655
02:00:16,790 --> 02:00:15,280
you know i don't want to say yes or no

3656
02:00:17,510 --> 02:00:16,800
for sure i think there's something like

3657
02:00:20,950 --> 02:00:17,520
god

3658
02:00:22,629 --> 02:00:20,960
and uh and it could it it has to do with

3659
02:00:24,790 --> 02:00:22,639
uh you know platonic values and

3660
02:00:26,550 --> 02:00:24,800
consciousness out there but

3661
02:00:29,270 --> 02:00:26,560
i'd rather leave it vague because

3662
02:00:31,030 --> 02:00:29,280
otherwise it becomes religion

3663
02:00:32,870 --> 02:00:31,040
okay well then what i was wondering is

3664
02:00:34,310 --> 02:00:32,880
let's imagine that we are the most

3665
02:00:36,310 --> 02:00:34,320
conscious parts of the universe now i

3666
02:00:37,189 --> 02:00:36,320
know that's extreme hubris then does

3667
02:00:38,830 --> 02:00:37,199
that mean that

3668
02:00:40,870 --> 02:00:38,840
we have a chance at directing the

3669
02:00:42,390 --> 02:00:40,880
evolution toward

3670
02:00:44,149 --> 02:00:42,400
the universe being more conscious in the

3671
02:00:45,750 --> 02:00:44,159
next cycle

3672
02:00:47,350 --> 02:00:45,760
if consciousness is somehow directing

3673
02:00:48,470 --> 02:00:47,360
the evolution of these cycles and we

3674
02:00:51,030 --> 02:00:48,480
happen to be the most

3675
02:00:51,830 --> 02:00:51,040
conscious in this universe then do we

3676
02:00:54,790 --> 02:00:51,840
have some hand

3677
02:00:56,310 --> 02:00:54,800
at that this is a huge speculative jump

3678
02:00:58,390 --> 02:00:56,320
yeah yeah i know i know i mean

3679
02:01:00,390 --> 02:00:58,400
i did speculate that uh roger and i did

3680
02:01:01,990 --> 02:01:00,400
speculate that you know these crossovers

3681
02:01:03,750 --> 02:01:02,000
of e on the eon

3682
02:01:05,510 --> 02:01:03,760
but just to get there you know you have

3683
02:01:05,990 --> 02:01:05,520
to have this key death of the universe

3684
02:01:13,830 --> 02:01:06,000
and

3685
02:01:15,270 --> 02:01:13,840
somehow you know in the in the plank

3686
02:01:17,189 --> 02:01:15,280
scale and the fine scale structure of

3687
02:01:19,589 --> 02:01:17,199
the universe whatever that is

3688
02:01:20,950 --> 02:01:19,599
so i don't know that's that's a tough

3689
02:01:23,669 --> 02:01:20,960
one

3690
02:01:25,270 --> 02:01:23,679
what do you agree with deepak chopra on

3691
02:01:26,709 --> 02:01:25,280
and what do you disagree with him on

3692
02:01:28,550 --> 02:01:26,719
i was watching the interview between you

3693
02:01:30,149 --> 02:01:28,560
and him and i said this on the

3694
02:01:32,629 --> 02:01:30,159
a most recent interview i did with

3695
02:01:35,270 --> 02:01:32,639
bernardo castro that

3696
02:01:37,189 --> 02:01:35,280
i'm i don't disagree necessarily with

3697
02:01:37,910 --> 02:01:37,199
deepak it's not like i agree or disagree

3698
02:01:39,430 --> 02:01:37,920
because i just

3699
02:01:42,310 --> 02:01:39,440
reserve judgment i don't know the idea

3700
02:01:44,709 --> 02:01:42,320
is enough but i see him as

3701
02:01:46,550 --> 02:01:44,719
looking for scientific credibility from

3702
02:01:48,950 --> 02:01:46,560
people so when you say something that

3703
02:01:49,750 --> 02:01:48,960
is in line with what he thinks he'll ask

3704
02:01:52,149 --> 02:01:49,760
you to

3705
02:01:54,070 --> 02:01:52,159
expound and then say well what do you

3706
02:01:55,030 --> 02:01:54,080
say to people who disagree and say that

3707
02:02:21,910 --> 02:01:55,040
i

3708
02:02:23,510 --> 02:02:21,920
uh

3709
02:02:24,950 --> 02:02:23,520
he can be criticized along the lines of

3710
02:02:26,550 --> 02:02:24,960
what you what you said but

3711
02:02:29,510 --> 02:02:26,560
his heart's in a good place and he means

3712
02:02:32,149 --> 02:02:29,520
well and uh let's just leave it at that

3713
02:02:32,550 --> 02:02:32,159
he's a friend of mine when people say

3714
02:02:35,430 --> 02:02:32,560
that

3715
02:02:37,830 --> 02:02:35,440
we're all one and not in just some

3716
02:02:42,390 --> 02:02:37,840
abstract sense but in that we share

3717
02:02:45,910 --> 02:02:42,400
some entity what do you make of that

3718
02:02:47,830 --> 02:02:45,920
like consciousness is fundamental uh i

3719
02:02:49,510 --> 02:02:47,840
think we can be one i think i think you

3720
02:02:52,149 --> 02:02:49,520
know people can be entangled

3721
02:02:54,229 --> 02:02:52,159
i don't uh you know i think esp and that

3722
02:02:56,790 --> 02:02:54,239
sort of thing parapsychology can't

3723
02:02:57,910 --> 02:02:56,800
can occur by quantum non-locality but

3724
02:02:59,430 --> 02:02:57,920
does that mean we are

3725
02:03:01,910 --> 02:02:59,440
all entangled at any one time not

3726
02:03:02,470 --> 02:03:01,920
necessarily i think potentially we can

3727
02:03:04,950 --> 02:03:02,480
be but

3728
02:03:06,470 --> 02:03:04,960
uh again i don't want to go too far in

3729
02:03:08,709 --> 02:03:06,480
that direction i've already

3730
02:03:10,950 --> 02:03:08,719
i've gone on quite a limb in a lot of

3731
02:03:12,390 --> 02:03:10,960
areas

3732
02:03:14,470 --> 02:03:12,400
okay i'll take some questions from the

3733
02:03:16,310 --> 02:03:14,480
audience so let's take a look here

3734
02:03:21,270 --> 02:03:16,320
is the depressed person more or less

3735
02:03:24,950 --> 02:03:22,550
well you could say they're less

3736
02:03:26,950 --> 02:03:24,960
conscious but they would require the

3737
02:03:30,870 --> 02:03:26,960
same amount of anesthesia probably

3738
02:03:33,109 --> 02:03:30,880
so i'd say they're probably uh

3739
02:03:34,470 --> 02:03:33,119
the same but just on a negative poll you

3740
02:03:39,109 --> 02:03:34,480
know you can have

3741
02:03:42,709 --> 02:03:40,950
but but on the other hand i do have a

3742
02:03:45,350 --> 02:03:42,719
graph in one of my papers where

3743
02:03:46,550 --> 02:03:45,360
we plot the number of tubulins and you

3744
02:03:51,270 --> 02:03:46,560
know uh

3745
02:03:54,149 --> 02:03:53,030
so the intensity of the conscious

3746
02:03:55,350 --> 02:03:54,159
experience would be related to the

3747
02:03:57,589 --> 02:03:55,360
frequency

3748
02:03:59,589 --> 02:03:57,599
of the uh of the number of orca wire

3749
02:04:00,629 --> 02:03:59,599
events you can have so a plant cell

3750
02:04:02,709 --> 02:04:00,639
might have

3751
02:04:04,550 --> 02:04:02,719
you know a few per minute and we can we

3752
02:04:07,990 --> 02:04:04,560
might have you know uh

3753
02:04:09,990 --> 02:04:08,000
trillions per second so yes

3754
02:04:11,669 --> 02:04:10,000
there are levels of consciousness but

3755
02:04:11,990 --> 02:04:11,679
within humans it's it's kind of hard to

3756
02:04:13,669 --> 02:04:12,000
say

3757
02:04:15,430 --> 02:04:13,679
this being depressed doesn't really

3758
02:04:18,069 --> 02:04:15,440
necessarily make you less conscious

3759
02:04:19,510 --> 02:04:18,079
you certainly feel less conscious but

3760
02:04:22,390 --> 02:04:19,520
maybe that's the same thing

3761
02:04:24,069 --> 02:04:22,400
but would stewart be interested in

3762
02:04:26,470 --> 02:04:24,079
seeing raw neural signals

3763
02:04:27,350 --> 02:04:26,480
in awake primates that show timing

3764
02:04:28,870 --> 02:04:27,360
supporting

3765
02:04:30,790 --> 02:04:28,880
his time predictions for network

3766
02:04:32,950 --> 02:04:30,800
properties and i just read that

3767
02:04:35,510 --> 02:04:32,960
verbatim i don't quite understand what's

3768
02:04:37,910 --> 02:04:35,520
going on so perhaps you do

3769
02:04:39,669 --> 02:04:37,920
there was support what okay would

3770
02:04:40,629 --> 02:04:39,679
stewart be interested in seeing raw

3771
02:04:43,589 --> 02:04:40,639
neural signals

3772
02:04:45,830 --> 02:04:43,599
in awake primates that show timings

3773
02:04:48,629 --> 02:04:45,840
supporting his timing predictions

3774
02:04:50,390 --> 02:04:48,639
for network properties if you mean

3775
02:04:52,149 --> 02:04:50,400
something that shows a response before

3776
02:04:53,589 --> 02:04:52,159
the stimulus the backward time effect

3777
02:04:54,870 --> 02:04:53,599
yes

3778
02:04:57,030 --> 02:04:54,880
and i suspect they're all over

3779
02:04:58,629 --> 02:04:57,040
neuroscience and they get buried

3780
02:05:00,550 --> 02:04:58,639
because people don't want to deal with

3781
02:05:01,669 --> 02:05:00,560
them we had a talk to one of our

3782
02:05:03,510 --> 02:05:01,679
conferences and

3783
02:05:05,109 --> 02:05:03,520
somebody was showing uh implanted

3784
02:05:07,430 --> 02:05:05,119
electrodes in patients

3785
02:05:08,790 --> 02:05:07,440
and with response to different different

3786
02:05:10,870 --> 02:05:08,800
uh faces

3787
02:05:13,189 --> 02:05:10,880
you know the halle berry neuron would

3788
02:05:16,390 --> 02:05:13,199
fire the bill clinton neuron with fire

3789
02:05:17,750 --> 02:05:16,400
and it seemed that the uh the uh the

3790
02:05:19,109 --> 02:05:17,760
firing which he was showing on the

3791
02:05:20,550 --> 02:05:19,119
screen were happening slightly before

3792
02:05:22,950 --> 02:05:20,560
the picture appeared

3793
02:05:23,669 --> 02:05:22,960
and i said are they synchronized and he

3794
02:05:25,750 --> 02:05:23,679
said yes

3795
02:05:26,950 --> 02:05:25,760
i said so you mean the neuron responds

3796
02:05:29,270 --> 02:05:26,960
just before the

3797
02:05:30,709 --> 02:05:29,280
before the picture actually appears he

3798
02:05:32,149 --> 02:05:30,719
goes yes

3799
02:05:34,229 --> 02:05:32,159
and he said well i said well how do you

3800
02:05:36,629 --> 02:05:34,239
explain that he goes i can't

3801
02:05:37,750 --> 02:05:36,639
and uh i said you think they're backward

3802
02:05:40,229 --> 02:05:37,760
time effects

3803
02:05:41,510 --> 02:05:40,239
he said i don't know he wouldn't go he

3804
02:05:42,709 --> 02:05:41,520
wouldn't go there this was christoph

3805
02:05:44,709 --> 02:05:42,719
koch student

3806
02:05:46,830 --> 02:05:44,719
at the time and i invited him to the

3807
02:05:49,030 --> 02:05:46,840
next year's conference to talk about

3808
02:05:50,390 --> 02:05:49,040
that and he showed up and he talked

3809
02:05:51,830 --> 02:05:50,400
about something different i said why

3810
02:05:52,229 --> 02:05:51,840
don't you talk about the backward time

3811
02:05:53,750 --> 02:05:52,239
effect

3812
02:05:56,870 --> 02:05:53,760
he said kristoff said it would ruin my

3813
02:05:58,950 --> 02:05:56,880
career really

3814
02:06:00,830 --> 02:05:58,960
that would ruin his career what's uh has

3815
02:06:03,030 --> 02:06:00,840
this been published

3816
02:06:04,229 --> 02:06:03,040
no but there's been a lot of stuff

3817
02:06:05,750 --> 02:06:04,239
published on backward time you know

3818
02:06:08,069 --> 02:06:05,760
daryl bem had

3819
02:06:09,750 --> 02:06:08,079
uh you know eight to eight experiment

3820
02:06:10,950 --> 02:06:09,760
and nine experiments eight of nine

3821
02:06:13,030 --> 02:06:10,960
eight out of nine of which showed back

3822
02:06:14,390 --> 02:06:13,040
with time effects

3823
02:06:16,550 --> 02:06:14,400
okay do you mind repeating that person's

3824
02:06:20,149 --> 02:06:16,560
name this way i can darryl

3825
02:06:22,550 --> 02:06:20,159
eem a psychologist oh

3826
02:06:23,350 --> 02:06:22,560
back in 2012 something like that in a

3827
02:06:26,550 --> 02:06:23,360
mainstream

3828
02:06:27,589 --> 02:06:26,560
psychology journal did uh nine

3829
02:06:31,350 --> 02:06:27,599
experiments

3830
02:06:34,310 --> 02:06:31,360
showing uh uh and eight of them showed

3831
02:06:34,629 --> 02:06:34,320
essentially backward time effects see

3832
02:06:36,470 --> 02:06:34,639
i'm

3833
02:06:37,830 --> 02:06:36,480
super super interested in talking to

3834
02:06:39,510 --> 02:06:37,840
people who

3835
02:06:41,109 --> 02:06:39,520
have done studies that demonstrate

3836
02:06:43,350 --> 02:06:41,119
something that seems like esp

3837
02:06:44,709 --> 02:06:43,360
or near death experiences or paranormal

3838
02:06:47,270 --> 02:06:44,719
psi events because

3839
02:06:47,830 --> 02:06:47,280
unlike most of the physicists i don't

3840
02:06:51,109 --> 02:06:47,840
see it as

3841
02:06:52,149 --> 02:06:51,119
perhaps there's this is indicating new

3842
02:06:53,750 --> 02:06:52,159
physics

3843
02:06:55,189 --> 02:06:53,760
or the way that consciousness interacts

3844
02:06:57,350 --> 02:06:55,199
with physics which to me is

3845
02:06:58,629 --> 02:06:57,360
part of an explanatory framework right

3846
02:06:59,990 --> 02:06:58,639
and roger's working on this

3847
02:07:02,470 --> 02:07:00,000
retroactivity

3848
02:07:04,390 --> 02:07:02,480
now which could explain this but he's

3849
02:07:06,069 --> 02:07:04,400
doing it as a way to get rid of the uh

3850
02:07:07,109 --> 02:07:06,079
well for a different reason because of

3851
02:07:09,669 --> 02:07:07,119
the uh

3852
02:07:11,669 --> 02:07:09,679
to his objective reduction in the tails

3853
02:07:13,589 --> 02:07:11,679
problem and quantum collapse and i

3854
02:07:15,030 --> 02:07:13,599
i don't know that much about but uh

3855
02:07:16,149 --> 02:07:15,040
hopefully we'll hear more about that in

3856
02:07:19,109 --> 02:07:16,159
our next paper because

3857
02:07:20,870 --> 02:07:19,119
he said he's working on it andreas cole

3858
02:07:22,709 --> 02:07:20,880
says i'm so excited for this

3859
02:07:23,990 --> 02:07:22,719
could you ask him what he thinks about

3860
02:07:26,550 --> 02:07:24,000
open individualism

3861
02:07:28,950 --> 02:07:26,560
and what theory of self he personally

3862
02:07:31,510 --> 02:07:28,960
subscribes to

3863
02:07:34,629 --> 02:07:31,520
and then what does orkoar say about that

3864
02:07:37,669 --> 02:07:34,639
said theory of self

3865
02:07:38,950 --> 02:07:37,679
um i'm not sure what different theories

3866
02:07:40,950 --> 02:07:38,960
of self are

3867
02:07:42,709 --> 02:07:40,960
i have this debate with with betsy my

3868
02:07:44,790 --> 02:07:42,719
wife all the time because

3869
02:07:46,709 --> 02:07:44,800
uh she and many people think you need

3870
02:07:49,030 --> 02:07:46,719
self to have consciousness and i

3871
02:07:51,270 --> 02:07:49,040
don't think you need a self to have

3872
02:07:54,470 --> 02:07:51,280
consciousness i think you can just have

3873
02:07:56,069 --> 02:07:54,480
uh experiences that over time

3874
02:07:57,589 --> 02:07:56,079
build up memories and the memories

3875
02:08:01,350 --> 02:07:57,599
itself so

3876
02:08:04,550 --> 02:08:01,360
uh i'm not committed you know and then

3877
02:08:06,870 --> 02:08:04,560
julian james you know had this idea that

3878
02:08:08,149 --> 02:08:06,880
hundreds of thousands of years ago there

3879
02:08:10,229 --> 02:08:08,159
was no one

3880
02:08:12,229 --> 02:08:10,239
you there's no one curt in your head

3881
02:08:15,510 --> 02:08:12,239
there's no one steward in my head

3882
02:08:17,990 --> 02:08:15,520
it was just a bunch of voices and uh

3883
02:08:18,550 --> 02:08:18,000
and you know the gods or the gremlins or

3884
02:08:21,589 --> 02:08:18,560
whoever

3885
02:08:22,790 --> 02:08:21,599
and then over over time it consolidated

3886
02:08:25,270 --> 02:08:22,800
into itself

3887
02:08:26,709 --> 02:08:25,280
so i don't think you need a self to to

3888
02:08:27,910 --> 02:08:26,719
be conscious i think

3889
02:08:29,990 --> 02:08:27,920
and of course if you know the whole

3890
02:08:33,350 --> 02:08:30,000
point of meditation is to lose

3891
02:08:35,669 --> 02:08:33,360
self so uh i i

3892
02:08:37,350 --> 02:08:35,679
i don't worry about that too much and i

3893
02:08:38,870 --> 02:08:37,360
think if you have a seat

3894
02:08:41,189 --> 02:08:38,880
sequence uh you know over the course of

3895
02:08:41,910 --> 02:08:41,199
a lifetime of conscious moments and

3896
02:08:43,350 --> 02:08:41,920
memory

3897
02:08:44,870 --> 02:08:43,360
you're going to have a self built up but

3898
02:08:46,069 --> 02:08:44,880
that doesn't mean it's the self having

3899
02:08:48,310 --> 02:08:46,079
the consciousness

3900
02:08:49,510 --> 02:08:48,320
consciousness could just be it's you

3901
02:08:52,069 --> 02:08:49,520
know occurring by its

3902
02:08:52,550 --> 02:08:52,079
by itself have you researched much about

3903
02:08:54,149 --> 02:08:52,560
jung

3904
02:08:56,310 --> 02:08:54,159
because what you described sound like

3905
02:08:56,950 --> 02:08:56,320
what jung described as the individuation

3906
02:08:58,470 --> 02:08:56,960
process

3907
02:09:01,510 --> 02:08:58,480
and that is that there are different

3908
02:09:04,550 --> 02:09:01,520
personalities disparate maybe disjoint

3909
02:09:07,589 --> 02:09:04,560
that are competing and conflicting

3910
02:09:08,550 --> 02:09:07,599
it could be yeah i i'm not a i know a

3911
02:09:12,149 --> 02:09:08,560
little bit about young

3912
02:09:14,390 --> 02:09:12,159
and uh uh betsy studies young and my

3913
02:09:15,350 --> 02:09:14,400
my good friend harold ottman spocker is

3914
02:09:19,030 --> 02:09:15,360
big on young

3915
02:09:21,910 --> 02:09:19,040
um but uh

3916
02:09:24,390 --> 02:09:21,920
i don't really know that much about it

3917
02:09:26,390 --> 02:09:24,400
okay and lastly dan arms says

3918
02:09:27,910 --> 02:09:26,400
does he think there may be any basis to

3919
02:09:31,589 --> 02:09:27,920
the hypothesis

3920
02:09:34,709 --> 02:09:31,599
that the sun has consciousness the sun

3921
02:09:36,550 --> 02:09:34,719
yeah uh the only thing i want to say

3922
02:09:40,550 --> 02:09:36,560
about that is that uh

3923
02:09:43,910 --> 02:09:40,560
roger once said that neutron stars

3924
02:09:47,109 --> 02:09:43,920
uh have giant bose-einstein condensates

3925
02:09:50,550 --> 02:09:47,119
so they could have moments of collapse

3926
02:09:52,069 --> 02:09:50,560
and a neutron star might be having

3927
02:09:57,669 --> 02:09:52,079
conscious moments but

3928
02:10:02,069 --> 02:10:00,709
stuart thank you so much man hey you're

3929
02:10:03,910 --> 02:10:02,079
welcome

3930
02:10:05,750 --> 02:10:03,920
good talking to you good luck to you yes

3931
02:10:07,109 --> 02:10:05,760
great questions thanks for your audience